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<blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 7172697" data-attributes="member: 6716779">My opposition to Dragonborn is thematic.&nbsp;To the world at large there is only one Dragon on Athas- The Dragon (singular). Even using some knowledge from latter sources there are only around 8 more Dragons on Athas with 1 undead one. Dragonmen wandering around the surface kind of defeats that theme.&nbsp;2E did have Dragon men it it. They were Dray and they were different to Dragonborn. 4E shoehorned them in and did so in a bad way. Now for example lets just assume I agree with refluffing the Dray as Dragonborn (I do not BTW) the 4E conversion shoehorned them in and made Dregoth a King of Giustanel and the Dragonborn were just another race. &nbsp;I would have stated out the Dray and even if I refluffed them as Dragonborn I would have included them in a logical way. Basically &quot; Dray are very rare on Athas. You can be one however but you are a exile/Spy/amnesiac and to the world at large you are a mutant&quot;. I may have been able to handle the Dray as a sub race of Dragonborn if the original Dragonborn were not available so you still get to play a Dragon man or even Dragonborn and you fit them in to the setting that makes sense. To me that is win win. &nbsp;The existing PHB Dragonborn do not fit on Athas (no metallic/chromatic Dragons). &nbsp;4E tanked remember in a large part because it enraged fans of 3E (and even 2E) due to things like the Spellplague and shoehorning in races. The 4E fans were very good at yelling &quot;fake news&quot; or the equivalent to convince each other how well the edition and changes were received.&nbsp;The Dray also have a sub race so an Athasian Dray could have 2 subraces to pick from.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zardnaar, post: 7172697, member: 6716779"] My opposition to Dragonborn is thematic. To the world at large there is only one Dragon on Athas- The Dragon (singular). Even using some knowledge from latter sources there are only around 8 more Dragons on Athas with 1 undead one. Dragonmen wandering around the surface kind of defeats that theme. 2E did have Dragon men it it. They were Dray and they were different to Dragonborn. 4E shoehorned them in and did so in a bad way. Now for example lets just assume I agree with refluffing the Dray as Dragonborn (I do not BTW) the 4E conversion shoehorned them in and made Dregoth a King of Giustanel and the Dragonborn were just another race. I would have stated out the Dray and even if I refluffed them as Dragonborn I would have included them in a logical way. Basically " Dray are very rare on Athas. You can be one however but you are a exile/Spy/amnesiac and to the world at large you are a mutant". I may have been able to handle the Dray as a sub race of Dragonborn if the original Dragonborn were not available so you still get to play a Dragon man or even Dragonborn and you fit them in to the setting that makes sense. To me that is win win. The existing PHB Dragonborn do not fit on Athas (no metallic/chromatic Dragons). 4E tanked remember in a large part because it enraged fans of 3E (and even 2E) due to things like the Spellplague and shoehorning in races. The 4E fans were very good at yelling "fake news" or the equivalent to convince each other how well the edition and changes were received. The Dray also have a sub race so an Athasian Dray could have 2 subraces to pick from. [/QUOTE]

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