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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5570118" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, then define it, lol. Honestly, what a game like 4e has done for us is simply provide a shorthand. If you play say 1e without any kind of map/grid/miniatures (things I might add which were strongly assumed by the rules to exist, really read the rules) then you simply find that the players will spend an inordinate amount of time resolving the same questions again and again, "are both those orcs in range? Will the fireball miss the paladin? Can I jump far enough to cross the chasm?" Or you can simply put some markers on a grid and have the answers at your fingertips. In either case you're engaging in a world of imagination.In fact what I found to be true of playing 1e in a fairly abstract style was that to a large extent the unclarity of such things simply inhibited people's creativity. It was easier for the fighter to simply hack at the orc than for the player to ask the 10 different questions they need answered before they even know if it makes sense to leap up onto the platform and push the ogre into the chasm (not to mention the rules didn't really cover things like leaping onto something or pushing someone, so is it even possible and what are my chances of success).I have to agree with the notion that, in combat anyway, good encounter design makes a huge difference as to how much creativity the players can exercise and how much the fiction engages them. In no version of the game is there much potential existing in a featureless room full of orcs. If the scene is interesting and filled with interesting stuff then the players will do interesting things, and this is exactly where a system like 4e really shines.Beyond that RP isn't figuring out a creative way to defeat the orcs. RP is "acting in character". I don't mean playing funny voices, I mean getting into the mind of your character. What are his motivations? What is his personality like? Is he an overconfident fool that rushes into danger? Is he cautious? Does he want revenge on orcs and will he overcome his caution if he sees a chance to put paid to them? THAT is RP, making choices that come together to depict a personality and tell a story about that character.So, exactly where is it that this RP is in any way shape or form inhibited by the less abstract representation of combat used in 4e? This isn't about RP at all. This discussion seems to be about people tending to use the shorthand terminology 4e provides to describe their actions (I use power X) vs the 1e equivalent, which is first I ask the DM 6 questions so I know enough to proceed, and THEN I describe my action in enough detail that people can hopefully make sense of it. Either system can produce colorful descriptions and in either system the DM is free to apply whatever mechanical restrictions, modifications, etc that he feels are justified by the situation and might not be spelled out in the rules. Another thing to remember is that this entire discussion has basically revolved around one small aspect of the game, combat. Granted that there's a lot of fighting in D&D, but it really isn't the venue in which the most elaborate RP takes place, nor has it ever been. I'd venture to say that with the more nitpicky details of combat taken care of by the system and game aids though there's more room for the players to at least think about it than there were in the past. Once you leave 'combat space' though? Seriously, one game is much different from another? Not really.</blockquote>

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