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Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5573242" data-attributes="member: 83768">For one, I never said 1E didn't use inches. I said it didn't use this "system", by which you described it. Interesting, considering this quote from the 1E PHB: Movement scale is kept as flexible as possible in order to deal with themultitude of applications it has,,i.e. dungeon movement (exploring andotherwise), city travel, treks through the outdoors, and combat situationsarising during the course of any such movements. Your referee will haveinformation which will enable him or her to adjust the movement rate tothe applicable time scale for any situation.What's even more interesting is that you are equating "inch" rated movement to "wargaming". Guess what: 4E uses inches for movement speed as well as ranges! 1 square = 1 inch... So... 4E is a wargame right? Please say yes, because if you're going to be a hypocrite about that, man, we need to just stop the conversation right now. 1E breaks movement down on a variety of scales based on indoor/outdoor environments, etc. In order to emphasis the varying locales you'll encounter. Your original quote tried implied that the wargaming method of using a tape measure, etc. were employed during all 1E D&D games... Gimme a break, dude.  This is straight up false equivocation.  I think you miss the point. Just because death doesn't happen on the 1st hit in 4E, doesn't mean that death is any more meaningful for the game. 1E wasn't about straight up, tactical battles. It was about using strategy, careful planning, and exploration to get the advantage on your foes and be in a situation where you never get hit in the first place. A completely different method of play. So, if we're comparing "meaningful" death, then you can't possibly compare it based on amount of HPs. Because, despite that, death in 1E and 4E is very much left open to interpretation by the group playing the game. I've ran sandbox 4E games where death came sometimes swift and sometimes often. You know what happened? Death (and more importantly, survival) became more meaningful. It meant you overcame something. You survived. You made it. Congrats. The actual numbers have little to do with it.  Really? You're going to pick out two games and say that encompasses all indie games? Hilarious.  Your original point was, 1E doesn't have skills, therefore: wargame. Now, it's because 1E's combat is complex. I say again, 4E's combat is robust. Does that mean it's a wargame? Let us not forget it uses inches as movement measurement... lol Wait a minute... So, because my character doesn't have a "power" that says, "You use a shield" that means I can't portray a fighter who uses a shield to protect his allies? Wtf? How does that make sense at all? In Basic D&D I can portray both thank you very much, without the need for powers, by simply doing those things in the fiction! I can play a fighter who rushes ahead and "<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />s up the enemy" or I can play a fighter who yanks the wizard behind his shield and defends him.  I don't need a power to do this.  Well, for one, "I swing my axe" is a narrative... So, if you are required to say, "I swing my axe" well, that's fiction isn't it? "I use Stomping Dragon of the Fiery Helljism..." isn't really fiction is it? It's the difference between "I use my shield to block..." vs. "I use AC." One references a rule. The other references fiction. Can you tell the difference?  Really? That's funny, because in my recent B/X game, we did exactly that. The DM was running Keep on the Borderlands, and we entered a room with a high priest that had platemail and a mace, casting evil spells at us. Guess what we did? We carefully maneuvered to get in past his army of zombies, set up a grapple attack and then knocked him down, so that our Fighter could move in and stand over him to keep him down, while me (the Thief) used my blade to cut our Cleric free from a snake that had been summoned by the priest to entangle him. I took my blade and wedged it in and sliced the snake's neck off. Lots of blood, but at least the Cleric was free. Wow. I guess "Chop. Eight damage." isn't the only thing you can accomplish in old school D&D (and, we were using B/X! Notorious for being super rules light!).  I'm not saying you can't do this in 4E. You won't hear me say that. But, in 1E it wasn't an "after the fact" description we added after using Power 319, which knocks target prone, Power 406 that lets you keep them prone, Power 27 that lets you deal 14 damage, etc... No, we were immersed in the fiction, and what came about was directly because of the details of what was actually happening.  A round is 1 minute. A segment is 6 seconds... No? Again, from the 1E PHB: In adventuring below ground, a turn in the dungeon lasts 10 minutes (seealso MOVEMENT). In combat, the turn is further divided into 10 meleerounds, or simply rounds. Rounds are subdivided into 10 segments, forpurposes of determining initiative (q.v.) and order of ottocks. Thus o turn is 10 minutes, a round 1 minute, and a segment 6 seconds.Usually, what you are doing falls within the segment time frame, based on initiative. Not to mention, in B/X, a turn was 10 seconds... Not much closer to 1 minute. From the Moldvay Basic book: TIME: Time in D&D adventures is given in turns of ten minutes each. A turn is not a measure of real time, but is a measure of how much a character can do within a given time frame. A character may explore and map an area equal to his or her movement rate in one turn. MOVEMENT: In the D&D, rules movement is given in the number of feet a character may move in one turn. All characters are able to move 120' or feet in one turn when exploring a dungeon. SCALE MOVEMENT: If miniatures figures are used, the actual movement of the characters can be represented at the scale of one inch equals ten feet. TIME IN ENCOUNTERS: "Normal" time in D&D games is measured in turns of 10 minutes each. ... Time in encounters is measured in rounds of 10 seconds each. You are making some serious exaggerations here. I can't? Wow. See my example above. I'd say that was all about adapting to changing situations... See above.  Again, see above. Lots of misinformation here.  Better tools? You mean like 4E's inch-based, miniature required tactical combat system? Hmmm....  "Good" of course is a subjective matter. And, I'd never say that B/X, BECMI, 1E, 2E, 3E, etc... don't have their faults. They do. But, they were all damned good RPGs. And, 4E is too. But, this thread is about a specific fault of 4E. Something that we can look back at older editions and see what went wrong.  I'd never say I knew all the rules 100% by memory. But, I think I have a decent grasp. But, how about taking a bit of your own advice here?</blockquote>

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