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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 5578211" data-attributes="member: 27160">I'm not saying that 4E isn't gamist at its core - you may not have seen it all but pemerton and I had quite a discussion on this, and my position is still that 4E primarily supports a gamist agenda (and does so well).&nbsp; But, nevertheless, pemerton has convinced me that the same &quot;manoeuvre room&quot; that 4E affords that allow long campaigns of functional gamist play can also be used to bring in thematic (i.e. narrativist) elements.That is not to say that I don't think there are many better narrativist supporting games out there, but many people do seem to be attached to D&amp;D for colour/nostalgia/mythology reasons.&nbsp; As a result we get huge &quot;edition wars&quot; and impassioned tirades because, even though other games may do someone's preferred style far better than D&amp;D ever did, they are wedded to D&amp;D and now can't make it do what they want it to.D&amp;D is also far easier to find players for than other RPGs, for much the same reasons.The end result, then, is that D&amp;D 4E can support gamism - which was always D&amp;d's &quot;core competency&quot; - and narrativism.&nbsp; The only folk &quot;out in the cold&quot; are the simulationist guys.&nbsp; That doesn't bother me - I found better places to scratch my sim itch long ago - but it does tear some folk up.&nbsp; Sad, really, since any move that will really help them will, I'm pretty sure, really screw the game up for those served already by 4E.Whaddaya mean, &quot;mere&quot; gamism??? Let's not start up that whole style snobbishness stuff again, please <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 5578211, member: 27160"] I'm not saying that 4E isn't gamist at its core - you may not have seen it all but [B]pemerton[/B] and I had quite a discussion on this, and my position is still that 4E primarily supports a gamist agenda (and does so well). But, nevertheless, [B]pemerton[/B] has convinced me that the same "manoeuvre room" that 4E affords that allow long campaigns of functional gamist play can also be used to bring in thematic (i.e. narrativist) elements. That is not to say that I don't think there are many better narrativist supporting games out there, but many people do seem to be attached to D&D for colour/nostalgia/mythology reasons. As a result we get huge "edition wars" and impassioned tirades because, even though other games may do someone's preferred style far better than D&D ever did, they are wedded to D&D and now can't make it do what they want it to. D&D is also far easier to find players for than other RPGs, for much the same reasons. The end result, then, is that D&D 4E can support gamism - which was always D&d's "core competency" - and narrativism. The only folk "out in the cold" are the simulationist guys. That doesn't bother me - I found better places to scratch my sim itch long ago - but it does tear some folk up. Sad, really, since any move that will really help them will, I'm pretty sure, really screw the game up for those served already by 4E. Whaddaya mean, "mere" gamism??? Let's not start up that whole style snobbishness stuff again, please ;) [/QUOTE]

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