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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1220617" data-attributes="member: 2011">To add some weird numbers to this mix:If as a spell caster, I want to craft a "camouflage item" which emulates the first edition Elvencloak, I have a few options depending on the DM:1) Spend 18050 GP to craft a +19 Hide Cloak of Elvenkind (skill level squared * 50 GP craft cost).2) Spend 12000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 2 spell has minutes duration).3) Spend 24000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 4 spell has rounds duration if the recipient disrupts it).4) Spend 112,000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 4 Greater Invisibility * CL 7 * 1000 GP craft cost * 4 spell has rounds duration).5) Spend 42050 GP to craft a +19 Hide (skill level squared * 50 GP craft cost) combined with a continuous Blur (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 2 spell has minutes duration * 2 for multiple abilities in item???).The second through fourth items have varying costs depending on what a "Cloak of Invisibility" means to a DM.If he thinks that you can just use the Invisibility spell straight up, it costs 12000 GP to craft. If he thinks that because of the attack limitation on the Invisibility spell, it could have a duration in the "rounds" timeframe, that the cost should be * 4 instead of * 2, then it would cost 24000 GP to craft. Or finally, he could decide that the concept of a continuous invisibility is one which requires Greater Invisibility and then the cost jumps to a whopping 112,000 GP.Now, the functionality of a first edition Elvencloak is more closely emulated with the +19 Hide Cloak of Elvenkind than it is with a Cloak of Invisibility because it did not provide true invisibility in 1E/2E. However, a +19 Hide Cloak is too weak to actually emulate the powers of the 1E Elvencloak since that cloak also had a 50% not spotted chance in bright light and the 95% not spotted chance in shadows could not be countered with someone with a high "Spot skill".The fifth item above sort of emulates the original cloak in that it always gives a concealment bonus and a +19 Hide bonus, hence, you could hide in plain sight with it (just like the original cloak). It is not identical to the original Elvencloak since the 95% chance to spot in shadows is often lower (due to a majority of characters both PC and NPC having higher Spot chances than Hide chances) but its spot in bright light is higher and it provides a 20% miss chance.If you call these minor differences a wash, then the fifth item is sort of what emulates best. In fact, I could even use these mechanics to craft the cloak and then state that it has the exact same functionality as the 1E cloak (i.e. 95% chance to not be spotted, etc.) and none of the 3.5 functionality (i.e. no miss chance, etc.).Now, having done these calculations, it is apparent that I can emulate the 1E cloak.My issues with this are:1) Even knowing the rules reasonably well, it took quite a bit of effort to craft an item (and I am still not sure about the * 2 cost for the multiple spells in item rule) which really does basically what the 1E cloak does as opposed to just looking in the DMG for the "same" (Elvencloak vs. Cloak of Elvenkind) item. It's mildly annoying to have to go to that effort.2) The 3.5 +5 Hide item is nowhere near as powerful as a +19 Hide Continuous Blur item. It is such a nerf that the +19 Hide Blur item is desirable as a player for my character, just like an Elvencloak was desirable back in 1E days. The +5 Hide item is basically a joke. Not only will I not go out of my way to acquire one, it takes up a precious item slot which can be used for a lot more useful items like a Cloak of Resistance or one of the Cloaks of Displacement (or even a Cloak of Charisma for a Bard or Sorcerer).3) Different DMs will come up with different ways to emulate the original cloak (there are 5 different ways that I listed here). That is a problem, especially for character conversion. There is no nice clean solution because the designers gave a totally different ability item virtually the same name and then did not create an item that had the original ability.</blockquote>

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