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Melee Combat Benchmarking (Class Comparison) [UPDATED]
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<blockquote data-quote="Zelc" data-source="post: 6575775" data-attributes="member: 40496"><p>UPDATED: Monk and Ranger houserules removed due to better information.</p><p></p><p>For those who are more concerned and willing to tinker, I’ve come up with some simple houserules which narrow the gap. These houserules are NOT playtested so use them at your own risk!</p><p></p><p>Many of you looked at the numbers above and are fine with the differences in combat effectiveness, or are otherwise unwilling to tinker with the system. This is perfectly valid and there are definite concerns with making houserules (especially ones which have not been playtested). You may still want to take a look at the houserules for a further sense on how far apart the classes currently are, and what it’d take to get them closer.</p><p></p><p>(This treads into territory for the House Rules and Homebrews forum, but is directly relevant to the previous post.)</p><p></p><p>My goals:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Battlemaster should have a bit less raw effectiveness compared to the Champion due to its extra utility. This mainly affects levels 3-10.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Barbarian should be closer to the Champion in combat effectiveness after level 11. I also want the Barbarian to be dangerous and scary.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Rogue’s attack should be at least somewhat effective when they can’t Sneak Attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Two-Weapon Fighting should be better.</li> </ul><p></p><p>[hr][/hr]</p><p><strong>Houserules:</strong></p><p>General:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Two-Weapon Fighting and Martial Arts’s extra attack trigger on the Attack action instead of requiring a bonus action. Extra attacks granted in this way do not stack.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Fighter (Champion):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Improved Accuracy replaces Improved Critical at level 3. “Starting at level 3, you gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20.”</li> </ul><p></p><p>Fighter (Battlemaster):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Superiority die size reduced by one step: d6/d8/d10 at levels 3/10/18.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Now only gets 3/4/5/6 superiority dice per short rest at levels 3/7/11/15: basically a reduction of 1 dice per short rest until level 11.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Barbarian:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Reckless Swing improves at level 11: “Starting at level 11, when you use the Reckless Swing feature, you may additionally choose to turn all hits you score during this turn with melee attack rolls using Strength into critical hits. If you do, all attacks which hit you are critical hits until your next turn.”</li> </ul><p></p><p>Rogue:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Precision: starting at level 7, once per turn when you hit with an attack which does not apply Sneak Attack damage, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage. You can’t use this feature if you’ve used your Sneak Attack feature this turn, and you can’t use your Sneak Attack feature this turn after using this feature.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The extra damage increases to 2d6 at level 15.</li> </ul><p>[hr][/hr]</p><p></p><p>After those houserules, the combat effectiveness of each class is as follows:</p><p>[sblock]</p><p>[table="width: 750, class: outer_border "]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]<u><strong>Level 3</strong></u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Champion</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Battlemaster</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Barbarian</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Paladin</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>TWF Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>S&B Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Monk</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Rogue</u>[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DPR[/td]</p><p> [td]10.0[/td]</p><p> [td]8.3[/td]</p><p> [td]10.0[/td]</p><p> [td]7.9[/td]</p><p> [td]12.0[/td]</p><p> [td]9.2[/td]</p><p> [td]8.8[/td]</p><p> [td]13.6[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DTPR[/td]</p><p> [td]10.6[/td]</p><p> [td]8.2[/td]</p><p> [td]9.1[/td]</p><p> [td]8.2[/td]</p><p> [td]10.6[/td]</p><p> [td]8.2[/td]</p><p> [td]8.8[/td]</p><p> [td]11.8[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]RIS[/td]</p><p> [td]3.4[/td]</p><p> [td]4.3[/td]</p><p> [td]3.4[/td]</p><p> [td]3.9[/td]</p><p> [td]2.6[/td]</p><p> [td]3.3[/td]</p><p> [td]2.6[/td]</p><p> [td]2.0[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]33.6[/td]</p><p> [td]35.8[/td]</p><p> [td]34.1[/td]</p><p> [td]30.7[/td]</p><p> [td]30.6[/td]</p><p> [td]30.3[/td]</p><p> [td]23.1[/td]</p><p> [td]26.6[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]%EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]---[/td]</p><p> [td]106%[/td]</p><p> [td]102%[/td]</p><p> [td]91%[/td]</p><p> [td]91%[/td]</p><p> [td]90%[/td]</p><p> [td]69%[/td]</p><p> [td]79%[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[/table]</p><p></p><p>[table="width: 750, class: outer_border"]</p><p> [tr]</p><p> [td]<u><strong>Level 7</strong></u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Champion</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Battlemaster</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Barbarian</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Paladin</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>TWF Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>S&B Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Monk</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Rogue</u>[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DPR[/td]</p><p> [td]24.8[/td]</p><p> [td]20.7[/td]</p><p> [td]20.2[/td]</p><p> [td]19.1[/td]</p><p> [td]22.9[/td]</p><p> [td]20.1[/td]</p><p> [td]17.0[/td]</p><p> [td]21.4[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DTPR[/td]</p><p> [td]23.8[/td]</p><p> [td]19.0[/td]</p><p> [td]19.2[/td]</p><p> [td]19.0[/td]</p><p> [td]21.4[/td]</p><p> [td]17.1[/td]</p><p> [td]15.0[/td]</p><p> [td]17.0[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]RIS[/td]</p><p> [td]2.9[/td]</p><p> [td]3.6[/td]</p><p> [td]3.4[/td]</p><p> [td]3.6[/td]</p><p> [td]2.7[/td]</p><p> [td]3.3[/td]</p><p> [td]3.7[/td]</p><p> [td]2.9[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]71.4[/td]</p><p> [td]74.5[/td]</p><p> [td]68.3[/td]</p><p> [td]69.1[/td]</p><p> [td]61.1[/td]</p><p> [td]67.0[/td]</p><p> [td]63.6[/td]</p><p> [td]61.7[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]%EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]---[/td]</p><p> [td]104%[/td]</p><p> [td]96%[/td]</p><p> [td]97%[/td]</p><p> [td]86%[/td]</p><p> [td]94%[/td]</p><p> [td]89%[/td]</p><p> [td]86%[/td]</p><p> [/tr]</p><p>[/table]</p><p></p><p>[table="width: 750, class: outer_border"]</p><p> [tr]</p><p> [td]<u><strong>Level 11</strong></u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Champion</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Battlemaster</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Barbarian</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Paladin</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>TWF Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>S&B Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Monk</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Rogue</u>[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DPR[/td]</p><p> [td]39.7[/td]</p><p> [td]33.0[/td]</p><p> [td]34.2[/td]</p><p> [td]33.0[/td]</p><p> [td]32.9[/td]</p><p> [td]29.6[/td]</p><p> [td]25.2[/td]</p><p> [td]28.7[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DTPR[/td]</p><p> [td]32.2[/td]</p><p> [td]28.6[/td]</p><p> [td]29.3[/td]</p><p> [td]28.6[/td]</p><p> [td]35.4[/td]</p><p> [td]29.0[/td]</p><p> [td]21.6[/td]</p><p> [td]25.6[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]RIS[/td]</p><p> [td]3.6[/td]</p><p> [td]4.0[/td]</p><p> [td]3.4[/td]</p><p> [td]3.7[/td]</p><p> [td]2.5[/td]</p><p> [td]3.0[/td]</p><p> [td]4.0[/td]</p><p> [td]3.4[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]141.3[/td]</p><p> [td]132.2[/td]</p><p> [td]115.4[/td]</p><p> [td]121.6[/td]</p><p> [td]80.8[/td]</p><p> [td]88.9[/td]</p><p> [td]100.2[/td]</p><p> [td]96.6[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]%EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]---[/td]</p><p> [td]94%[/td]</p><p> [td]82%[/td]</p><p> [td]86%[/td]</p><p> [td]57%[/td]</p><p> [td]63%[/td]</p><p> [td]71%[/td]</p><p> [td]68%[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[/table]</p><p></p><p>[table="width: 750, class: outer_border"]</p><p> [tr]</p><p> [td]<u><strong>Level 15</strong></u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Champion</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Battlemaster</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Barbarian</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Paladin</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>TWF Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>S&B Ranger</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Monk</u>[/td]</p><p> [td]<u>Rogue</u>[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DPR[/td]</p><p> [td]41.1[/td]</p><p> [td]33.8[/td]</p><p> [td]40.7[/td]</p><p> [td]35.1[/td]</p><p> [td]32.9[/td]</p><p> [td]29.6[/td]</p><p> [td]27.0[/td]</p><p> [td]36.8[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]DTPR[/td]</p><p> [td]43.0[/td]</p><p> [td]38.2[/td]</p><p> [td]35.9[/td]</p><p> [td]38.2[/td]</p><p> [td]36.8[/td]</p><p> [td]30.1[/td]</p><p> [td]26.3[/td]</p><p> [td]34.1[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]RIS[/td]</p><p> [td]4.2[/td]</p><p> [td]4.8[/td]</p><p> [td]4.1[/td]</p><p> [td]4.1[/td]</p><p> [td]3.6[/td]</p><p> [td]4.4[/td]</p><p> [td]4.4[/td]</p><p> [td]3.8[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]174.7[/td]</p><p> [td]161.3[/td]</p><p> [td]168.1[/td]</p><p> [td]144.1[/td]</p><p> [td]118.1 [/td]</p><p> [td]129.8[/td]</p><p> [td]119.4[/td]</p><p> [td]141.4[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[tr]</p><p> [td]%EFF[/td]</p><p> [td]---[/td]</p><p> [td]92%[/td]</p><p> [td]96%[/td]</p><p> [td]82%[/td]</p><p> [td]68%[/td]</p><p> [td]74%[/td]</p><p> [td]68%[/td]</p><p> [td]81%[/td]</p><p>[/tr]</p><p>[/table]</p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>I think the Barbarian ability is especially thematic. It turns Barbarians into the crazy guy with a bunch of grenades, where enemies desperately hope he will blow himself up before he blows them up. The main concern with these houserules is it slightly increases the Champion’s already high damage, and it makes Barbarians very strong in 1v1 combat.</p><p></p><p>The change to Two-Weapon Fighting helps Rangers and Monks. TWF Rangers are still weaker than their S&B counterparts, but they at least do more damage now. Monks can now use Patient Defense in the early levels without sacrificing too much damage. Note you should adjust Flurry of Blows to replace the Martial Arts extra attack with two attacks, thus retaining the same power for Open Hand Technique.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zelc, post: 6575775, member: 40496"] UPDATED: Monk and Ranger houserules removed due to better information. For those who are more concerned and willing to tinker, I’ve come up with some simple houserules which narrow the gap. These houserules are NOT playtested so use them at your own risk! Many of you looked at the numbers above and are fine with the differences in combat effectiveness, or are otherwise unwilling to tinker with the system. This is perfectly valid and there are definite concerns with making houserules (especially ones which have not been playtested). You may still want to take a look at the houserules for a further sense on how far apart the classes currently are, and what it’d take to get them closer. (This treads into territory for the House Rules and Homebrews forum, but is directly relevant to the previous post.) My goals: [list] [*]The Battlemaster should have a bit less raw effectiveness compared to the Champion due to its extra utility. This mainly affects levels 3-10. [*]The Barbarian should be closer to the Champion in combat effectiveness after level 11. I also want the Barbarian to be dangerous and scary. [*]The Rogue’s attack should be at least somewhat effective when they can’t Sneak Attack. [*]Two-Weapon Fighting should be better. [/list] [hr][/hr] [b]Houserules:[/b] General: [list] [*]Two-Weapon Fighting and Martial Arts’s extra attack trigger on the Attack action instead of requiring a bonus action. Extra attacks granted in this way do not stack. [/list] Fighter (Champion): [list] [*]Improved Accuracy replaces Improved Critical at level 3. “Starting at level 3, you gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls and your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19-20.” [/list] Fighter (Battlemaster): [list] [*]Superiority die size reduced by one step: d6/d8/d10 at levels 3/10/18. [*]Now only gets 3/4/5/6 superiority dice per short rest at levels 3/7/11/15: basically a reduction of 1 dice per short rest until level 11. [/list] Barbarian: [list] [*]Reckless Swing improves at level 11: “Starting at level 11, when you use the Reckless Swing feature, you may additionally choose to turn all hits you score during this turn with melee attack rolls using Strength into critical hits. If you do, all attacks which hit you are critical hits until your next turn.” [/list] Rogue: [list] [*]Precision: starting at level 7, once per turn when you hit with an attack which does not apply Sneak Attack damage, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage. You can’t use this feature if you’ve used your Sneak Attack feature this turn, and you can’t use your Sneak Attack feature this turn after using this feature. [*]The extra damage increases to 2d6 at level 15. [/list] [hr][/hr] After those houserules, the combat effectiveness of each class is as follows: [sblock] [table="width: 750, class: outer_border "] [tr] [td][U][b]Level 3[/b][/U][/td] [td][U]Champion[/U][/td] [td][U]Battlemaster[/U][/td] [td][U]Barbarian[/U][/td] [td][U]Paladin[/U][/td] [td][U]TWF Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]S&B Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]Monk[/U][/td] [td][U]Rogue[/U][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DPR[/td] [td]10.0[/td] [td]8.3[/td] [td]10.0[/td] [td]7.9[/td] [td]12.0[/td] [td]9.2[/td] [td]8.8[/td] [td]13.6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DTPR[/td] [td]10.6[/td] [td]8.2[/td] [td]9.1[/td] [td]8.2[/td] [td]10.6[/td] [td]8.2[/td] [td]8.8[/td] [td]11.8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]RIS[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]4.3[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]3.9[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]3.3[/td] [td]2.6[/td] [td]2.0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EFF[/td] [td]33.6[/td] [td]35.8[/td] [td]34.1[/td] [td]30.7[/td] [td]30.6[/td] [td]30.3[/td] [td]23.1[/td] [td]26.6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]%EFF[/td] [td]---[/td] [td]106%[/td] [td]102%[/td] [td]91%[/td] [td]91%[/td] [td]90%[/td] [td]69%[/td] [td]79%[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table="width: 750, class: outer_border"] [tr] [td][U][b]Level 7[/b][/U][/td] [td][U]Champion[/U][/td] [td][U]Battlemaster[/U][/td] [td][U]Barbarian[/U][/td] [td][U]Paladin[/U][/td] [td][U]TWF Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]S&B Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]Monk[/U][/td] [td][U]Rogue[/U][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DPR[/td] [td]24.8[/td] [td]20.7[/td] [td]20.2[/td] [td]19.1[/td] [td]22.9[/td] [td]20.1[/td] [td]17.0[/td] [td]21.4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DTPR[/td] [td]23.8[/td] [td]19.0[/td] [td]19.2[/td] [td]19.0[/td] [td]21.4[/td] [td]17.1[/td] [td]15.0[/td] [td]17.0[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]RIS[/td] [td]2.9[/td] [td]3.6[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]3.6[/td] [td]2.7[/td] [td]3.3[/td] [td]3.7[/td] [td]2.9[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EFF[/td] [td]71.4[/td] [td]74.5[/td] [td]68.3[/td] [td]69.1[/td] [td]61.1[/td] [td]67.0[/td] [td]63.6[/td] [td]61.7[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]%EFF[/td] [td]---[/td] [td]104%[/td] [td]96%[/td] [td]97%[/td] [td]86%[/td] [td]94%[/td] [td]89%[/td] [td]86%[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table="width: 750, class: outer_border"] [tr] [td][U][b]Level 11[/b][/U][/td] [td][U]Champion[/U][/td] [td][U]Battlemaster[/U][/td] [td][U]Barbarian[/U][/td] [td][U]Paladin[/U][/td] [td][U]TWF Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]S&B Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]Monk[/U][/td] [td][U]Rogue[/U][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DPR[/td] [td]39.7[/td] [td]33.0[/td] [td]34.2[/td] [td]33.0[/td] [td]32.9[/td] [td]29.6[/td] [td]25.2[/td] [td]28.7[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DTPR[/td] [td]32.2[/td] [td]28.6[/td] [td]29.3[/td] [td]28.6[/td] [td]35.4[/td] [td]29.0[/td] [td]21.6[/td] [td]25.6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]RIS[/td] [td]3.6[/td] [td]4.0[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [td]3.7[/td] [td]2.5[/td] [td]3.0[/td] [td]4.0[/td] [td]3.4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EFF[/td] [td]141.3[/td] [td]132.2[/td] [td]115.4[/td] [td]121.6[/td] [td]80.8[/td] [td]88.9[/td] [td]100.2[/td] [td]96.6[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]%EFF[/td] [td]---[/td] [td]94%[/td] [td]82%[/td] [td]86%[/td] [td]57%[/td] [td]63%[/td] [td]71%[/td] [td]68%[/td] [/tr] [/table] [table="width: 750, class: outer_border"] [tr] [td][U][b]Level 15[/b][/U][/td] [td][U]Champion[/U][/td] [td][U]Battlemaster[/U][/td] [td][U]Barbarian[/U][/td] [td][U]Paladin[/U][/td] [td][U]TWF Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]S&B Ranger[/U][/td] [td][U]Monk[/U][/td] [td][U]Rogue[/U][/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DPR[/td] [td]41.1[/td] [td]33.8[/td] [td]40.7[/td] [td]35.1[/td] [td]32.9[/td] [td]29.6[/td] [td]27.0[/td] [td]36.8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]DTPR[/td] [td]43.0[/td] [td]38.2[/td] [td]35.9[/td] [td]38.2[/td] [td]36.8[/td] [td]30.1[/td] [td]26.3[/td] [td]34.1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]RIS[/td] [td]4.2[/td] [td]4.8[/td] [td]4.1[/td] [td]4.1[/td] [td]3.6[/td] [td]4.4[/td] [td]4.4[/td] [td]3.8[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]EFF[/td] [td]174.7[/td] [td]161.3[/td] [td]168.1[/td] [td]144.1[/td] [td]118.1 [/td] [td]129.8[/td] [td]119.4[/td] [td]141.4[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]%EFF[/td] [td]---[/td] [td]92%[/td] [td]96%[/td] [td]82%[/td] [td]68%[/td] [td]74%[/td] [td]68%[/td] [td]81%[/td] [/tr] [/table] [/sblock] I think the Barbarian ability is especially thematic. It turns Barbarians into the crazy guy with a bunch of grenades, where enemies desperately hope he will blow himself up before he blows them up. The main concern with these houserules is it slightly increases the Champion’s already high damage, and it makes Barbarians very strong in 1v1 combat. The change to Two-Weapon Fighting helps Rangers and Monks. TWF Rangers are still weaker than their S&B counterparts, but they at least do more damage now. Monks can now use Patient Defense in the early levels without sacrificing too much damage. Note you should adjust Flurry of Blows to replace the Martial Arts extra attack with two attacks, thus retaining the same power for Open Hand Technique. [/QUOTE]
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