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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1713644" data-attributes="member: 3146">Both of us I think benefitted tremendously from facing amorphous foes with no defined abilities other than attack bonus, damage, and AC.Those attack bonusses and AC are similar to a lot of monsters one would fight as a 20th level character (I'm assuming here, based upon the CRs in the Monster Manual). However, very few CR 20 or so monsters JUST have that attack bonus and AC.A Balor, for instance, has nearly 300 hit points, an AC of 35 (touch 16) and a full attack of +31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+7 (+1 vorpal longsword) and +1 flaming whip at +30/+25 for 1d4+4 and 1d6 fire and a grapple of +36. However, looking at the Balor's strength, those damages are wrong and the sword should be at +15 and the whip at +8.It also has Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft., flaming body, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing, Power Attack (which would make a noticable difference to the amount of damage the psiwarrior takes unless he improves his AC), It has the following Spell-Like Abilities: At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23--this is a free action due to his Quicken Spell Like Ability feat), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.My fighter will still cream it in two rounds of a one on one full attack fest (Evil Outsider Bane makes a big difference) but no Balor is going to stick around in a one on one full attack fest with my fighter. A balor will probably try to start the fight with Unholy Aura active--upping its AC and possibly inflicting strength damage on our characters. It may try dominate monster on our characters. It may even deliberately provoke an AoO, hoping we don't have combat reflexes and try to grapple said characters--knowing that it has a significant advantage over either character in a grapple and that we couldn't use our weapons or power attack which makes its DR more advantageous. That would not work very well against my fighter with his +30 base grapple check and, more importantly combat reflexes, but it might work against the psi-warrior and would at least force him to dimension door out of the grapple.You'll also note that the balor really isn't vulnerable to trips from my character unless my character uses Enlarge Person or Righteous Might from the ring.The pit fiend is also CR 20, has 225 hp or so, an AC of 40, natural attacks at +30/+30/+28/+28/+28/+28, Improved Grab, Constrict, Regeneration 5, DR 15 silver and good,a fear aura, and a good selection of spell like abilities: blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—meteor swarm (DC 27). Caster level 18th. It may lose the full attack fest with my fighter, I think it wins against the psi warrior (though I haven't run the numbers, all of its attacks are in the "hit" range since they don't suffer iterative penalties. However, it won't trade full attacks. It's quickened fireball will soften us up and it would probably go for the Power Word Stun (which will probably bounce off both characters in round 1 though for different reasons (Mind Blank for the PsiWar and hit points for my fighter)). Then, when it attacks, it's likely to try the Improved Grab to knock our attacks down to size. Against my fighter, that will work against it because all it will accomplish is giving me extra attacks (Close Quarters Fighting). Against the PsiWar, it may force him to dimension door away after taking a pounding from three consecutive grapple+constrict damage checks after the grapple starts. (The first BAB based attack starts the grapple then the next three grapple for damage or to pin). Then again, a different PsiWar could easily have Close Quarters Fighting and Combat Reflexes too and a different Fighter 20 might not have either so that only demonstrates that my particular build deals with Improved Grab better than Scion's particular build. Still, that's worth something.Actually killing the pit fiend will be a real pain for my character though (Scion's entry just hits it until his wounding weapon destroys all of its con). If we're left to our own devices, my character will need to pull out a silver weapon, use his sacred scabbard to make it good aligned and coup de grace the pit fiend until it fails the save. (Hmmm. I hope he's got a silvered heavy pick somewhere on his person--that could be a DC 164 for save on average power attack: 20 damage with the heavy pick).A Wyrm black dragon (also CR 20) has an AC of 39 and an attack of +42 and 459 hit points. I don't think either character wants to trade full attacks with it (though spring attack will serve my fighter well as will elusive target when the wyrm decides to power attack).So, all told, I don't think the numbers Scion uses are particularly poor. They're in the ballpark for physical threats that might be faces as 20th level characters. However, they don't tell the whole story and "dealing with Improved Grab/Grapple and constrict" should definitely be a category in the comparison as should "dealing with multiple weaker creatures," "dealing with common DR," "dealing with regeneration," and "dealing with a foe (such as the black dragon) who outclasses you in damage dealing and soaking it."</blockquote>

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