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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1719184" data-attributes="member: 5777">Nor do I feel I am being closed minded. Stating that the psychic warrior can do a vast number of things that the fighter cant hope to do by himself (as stating that one could do it with a party member isnt helpful, a commoner could do the same, and I doubt anyone would say that he is up to par with pc classes) is clear. There should be no dispute there, but people were saying the opposite. I have even tried not to cry fowl about any feats that would normally be considered overpowered/broken (improved trip is right up there), which would seem to be letting people have their piece of the pie.Enlarge person works on other people and is only a first level spell. Expansion when augmented is no longer the same as a first level power, so comparing the two at that point is difficult to impossible, much like saying that an empowered, maximised, quickened magic missile is better than magic missile so therefore magic missile is broken. It just doesnt work.Fire shield is a bit on the weak side, especially for its level. Mainly from being highly visible (you are now a torch), elemental damage (most creatures will wind up being resistant or immune, even at the level you first get it), and its incredibly short duration.Although, comparing the two when they are the same level of casting (with 20th level casters, as seems to be the threads way to go) it goes like this:Fire shield: 20 rounds, self only, d6+15 damage (fire or cold) to attacker (melee only), light as a torch (can be good or bad, although bad seems more likely), and half elemental damage from opposite element with save for half giving no damage (limited form of improved evasion).Empathic feedback: 200 minute duration, self only, 5 points for psion or 7 points for psychic warrior (no damage type) from melee only.So, fire shield does 'much' more damage to targets who dont resist (avg 18.5 vs a max of 7 for the psychic warrior and only if they are hit for 7 or more along with it).Mostly it comes down to duration and augmentation. Empathic feedback has a duration that will likely last more than one battle but fireshield does not. On my list that puts fireshield into the worthless bin in the vast majority of cases. Also, in this example it is obviously not overpowered, it does typeless damage and as such does much, much less. So peoples real problems probably stem from the augmentation. But that is incredibly difficult to measure.To get the real bang out of it at higher levels you really have to dump points into it, especially if you want to make it last for enough time (via extend or some other method). Even maxed out as I have it how does it compare with other such spells/powers? Mass heal, gate, implosion, miracle, wish, astral projection, mass hold monster, prismatic sphere.. etc..How about the lowly summon monster 9? high level spells do some impressive things. High level powers are the same. For the purposes of the last thread, from which this one came, fighters need high end feat trees to make them a viable class. otherwise they have to do what was done here for the fighters and go to a lot of different sources and pick out the most overpowered ones they can find to simulate it. Other fighter classes get big and bad abilities, so much so that they can overwhelm high level casters (there are overpowered/broken spells as well, but I like to get rid of those in my games, namely: save or dies, disjunction, improved invis, and a few others.. I also give fighters some impressive trees to draw from, others can take them as well, but if it takes all 7 of their feats to do it they tend only to finish at very high levels).So spending one action out of the fight (a very important action, the first one) to put up a limited time offer isnt a problem? We will simply have to disagree pretty much completely on this one.But even then, how many buffs do you have time for? Giving up one round is bad enough, but what if you need two buffs to really get moving? or three?Putting up short duration powers for pretty large costs just doesnt help very much. Unbuffed the psychic warrior is below the fighter. Down by up to 5 BAB, 3 feats, and 20 hp. Normally it will take about 3 buffs to take care of this to catch up. If they have to put up those three powers before every battle then they'll never be able to keep up, so no wonder you favor the fighters, you dont like having durations that are actually helpful.1 round/ level spells/powers had better be pretty incredible for what they do. Likely a character will either have 0 or 1 of them up, the 1 cuts into power considerably.1 minute/level are still effectively single battle effects. Though can could be used in 2 very close together battles if pushed or high in levels and extended.10 min/level and up are when they actually start to become useful. You can actually have these up at random times, even if you arent worried about fighting just now.With such short term buffs being so proliferent the main problem isnt even that they are so difficult to put up in a regular combat, which is a major problem indeed, but that people who get the jump on others have an even greater benefit. If you are ambushing someone then you and your compatrios can have all of your short term devices activated, which destroys the CR system. A fully short term buffed up group of guys vs people with no buffs on at all can modify the ECL so completely it boggles the mind.Short term buffs have their place, usually having one up at a time, but there need to be many longer term buffs just as a general sense of purpose and character. They give a feel for how time normally flows, elsewise it is just back down to video game status. As 3.5 with their short term buffs seem to be pointing to.Long term buffs are much healthier for the game than tons of short term buffs.In all likelyhood though empathic feedback does give SR but they failed to mention it. A cursory glance at fire shield and you would expect no SR either so if they were basing it losely on that then an error could have occured there.Of course not, everyone has different levels they think certain things are at. Some people feel that weapon focus is too powerful. There are some things that are strong indeed, but there is a difference between 'powerful' and 'too powerful'. where people draw the line differs however. In some games it works one way, in others differently. I have seen games where the halfogre is fine at +1 LA, and other games where it would not have worked no matter the LA. Games differ.My original build only has 10 powers up and running at once, not all of even those will be used every battle. A few secondary powers might be used in a given battle. So we are definately far from 'all' being used every battle. The second guy used almost none.But then how many does your guy use every battle?The psychic warrior paid the price to use his abilities more often through a host of feats, limited spell slot selection, and pp useage. Why shouldnt he be able to count on them often?Actually, it being poorly thought out is what made it broken. Most of the time it was worthless, the few times it was actually useful it tended to be incredibly overpowering.I have advocated forever for it to be turned into something more like permanancy. That way you have a list of spells that it can be used on (opens up many more options), the level adjustment would vary by how big of a benefit it would be, and it solves every problem all at once.The current 'fix' only makes the problem larger. It is only useful when overpowered and is useless every other time.This is not a problem with the skin itself, you are saying you have a problem with polymorph like spells and powers. That is a completely seperate issue entirely.Like I said, my build could do the same thing with an expenditure of a feat. So really, your problem comes from the power. As there are many threads decrying the overpoweredness and underpoweredness of this spell/power (yes, it is both at the same time) this probably isnt the place for it beyond saying that psychic warriors can get the power and so have another one up on the fighter.Some items? you have said the skin of proteus, so what other items are broken?I have purposely steered clear of quite a few items in the complete divine, BoED, and the complete warrior. Although I also very much dislike the standard of heroism, which is why the last build I made did not use it. If allowed every party should have one because its effect is so far reaching and good and its cost is negligable (in a standard party they just have to pay 10k each and they get +2 attack, +2 to saves, and +2 to skill checks)There are certain items that if allowed would break the environment (that cloak and the retributive amulet are at the top of the list, when worn together you take 1/4 damage? sign me up!). I dont think that the skin of proteus is any more abuseable than simply having the power however, but if you wish to show how overpowered it is go ahead. Chances are very good however that you will simply show that the power itself needs some work and not that the item is bad.</blockquote>

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