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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1640569" data-attributes="member: 5171">Hmm.  A few thoughts.1) Saying "Smart/Charismatic heroes are weak in a combat-heavy game" is a bit like saying "Strong heroes are weak in my CSI:Interpol game", when said game deals primarily with noncombative jewel thieves.  The game is good for what the GM puts into it.2) Comparing d20 Modern heroes to D&D heroes is not always a great idea.  The classes are balanced in different ways and intended for different sorts of campaigns. I know that Joshua Dyal runs a game that uses those classes together, but unless you're really good at keeping plates spinning as a GM, you shouldn't be combining those classes -- and you definitely shouldn't be trying to power-balance them.  D&D characters win.  Really.  Almost all the time.  d20 Modern heroes are a fair amount weaker.  That's the way the designers wanted it -- they wanted heroes to be afraid of getting caught in a hail of gunfire even at mid-to-high levels.  They wanted it to require a difficult and focused choice to have a BAB equal to your level -- and even more difficult for a ranged-attack specialist.3) Like most things in d20 Modern, this stuff isn't great all by itself.  It's all in how you combine it.  Back before the errata changed the way the Soldier's tactical aid ability worked, I had a field day with a Smart/Soldier.  He was an officer -- not as good a shot as his sergeant or as tough as his men, but if he could set up a battle plan, he could give his boys a much better chance to come out of there alive.  (Plan plus Tactical Aid, pre-errata.)4) I don't know if I'm breaking a rule with this interpretation, but I ruled that the plan-timer doesn't kick in until a predetermined point.  If you and the bad guys are 300 feet away from each other, and you're going to spend the next three rounds moving in at a jog, it seems lame to have the plan expire by the time you close -- especially if the plan is "Okay, as soon as we're in close, Billy, you hit them from the side, Tom, come in straight up the middle and harry their inner circle, and Mitch, hang back behind cover and pick off anybody who breaks out of the fight."  I don't start the timer until the first roll that would be modified by that plan starts.5) Another note about these classes in combat: The designers were big on multiclassing, and you should be, too.  The classes were designed, I believe, to work best when multiclassing.  Sure, you can maximize your Savant or Fast-Talk ability by taking levels solely in Smart or Charismatic -- that's your choice -- but don't complain about it when a Strong/Charismatic mix is able to have more fun in combat.  They paid for it.  The Strong/Charismatic mix is good for a hard hitting sergeant who can also inspire his troops or work the system to get his men special treatment.  A Tough/Charismatic works well for this, too -- less damage output, but he gets the reputation as the iron-jawed sergeant who can survive anything, and who gets his troops through the worst situations by yelling at them until they're more scared of him than of the enemy.6)  I don't believe that Fast-Talk applies to combat bluffs, since a feint in combat isn't an attempt to lie, dissemble, or bend the truth through words.  I could be way wrong, though.7) In comparing the Charismatic Hero to the Smart Hero, remember that the Smart hero not only has more skill points, but more class skills to choose from.  Where most d20 Modern folks have to either accept that their character is focused in a limited area, or spread out with lots of skills that don't have a ton of ranks, the Smart Hero has the ability to excel in a ton of skills.  With Savant, as you mentioned, and with skill synergies, you've got the class capability to do some crazy stuff.  Of course, as I mentioned before, the class is limited to doing great intelligent stuff on its own.  It's probably more fun to play if you combine it with a physical class, like Fast.  A Fast/Smart hero with the Criminal, Adventurer, or Athletic occupation can be amazingly fun to play, and useful as well.8) To reiterate something about the importance of skills: This is something I've come up with myself, so no clue as to whether this is what the designers intended, but I believe that a good baseline for "skill DC that a hero should have to make for an average, not-critical-and-non-retryable check" is 14+level.  A GM should be giving 1st-level PCs lots of DC15 skill checks -- not necessarily checks that are "succeed or you blow the mission", but checks that provide good ways to accomplish their objectives.  A character with max'd ranks and a +0 ability modifier makes a DC14+level check 50% of the time.  A character with max'd ranks, a +2 ability modifier, and some feat or talent that adds a +2 bonus succeeds 70% of the time.This is the design that I use for most of my adventures.  Sure, some checks are easier and some checks are harder, because robbing a high-security bank vault shouldn't scale in difficulty -- it should always be hard.  But my players know that if they want to be really good for their level at something, they need to have max'd ranks and some other bonuses.  For these situations, the skill bonuses provided by smart and charismatic characters is enormous.  It lets them get obscene skill checks, and it also lets them get just plain GOOD skill checks while also taking some other skills.  This is huge.It mostly comes back to (1), though.  If you throw wave after wave of gun-toting nontalkative bad guys at your PCs, they're gonna throw Strong/Tough/Fast PCs back at you.  Making a variety of different skills integral to the success of the party is what'll get you a variety of mental PCs -- and coming up with fun ways to use their skills is what makes them as enjoyable as the combat machines.For example, take a Smart/Charismatic Hero with Plan, Fast-Talk, and Dazzle.  Tell him that as he prepares to go into a complex negotiation, he's going to have to make a number of checks, during a number of "rounds" of negotiation.  His initial Strategy, conceived with Plan, will work during the opening rounds of negotiation -- but in this non-combat scenario, each round lasts several hours.  He can choose to Bluff, working with a specific gambit, and if he succeeds in his fast-talk, he can gain a sizeable advantage (say, immediately earning one negotiation point, where the first person to get 5 negotiation points gets the vital business deal or wins the lawsuit).  If his bluff fails, though, he automatically loses a point, and takes a penalty on further rolls as his credibility takes a hit.  Or he can choose to Dazzle his opponent with high-falutin' banter, trying to rattle the competition and get them to make mistakes.  Set it up so that each "round of negotiation" allows one normal standard or full-round action, and that a successful Diplomacy check, DC20, lets you earn one Negotiation Point or take one Negotiation Point away from your competition.  A Knowledge check in the appropriate area might also earn a Negotiation point, and a Bluff or Intimidate, which are risky and have consequences for failure, could earn multiple points on a success.Okay, so I'm mostly making that up as I go along, but if my PCs ever find themelves in a high-stakes business venture -- or need to negotiate on behalf of a small town of hapless citizens who want to broker a peaceful deal with the goblins in the sewers -- this kind of stuff makes the mental PCs much more interesting.</blockquote>

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