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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1641082" data-attributes="member: 5171">I'm not sure I agree that combat is run almost the same in every game.  I've had radically different combat styles -- what kinds of enemies you're likely to face, what kind of arms they're gonna be packing, and so forth -- with the same group in different campaigns, which range from X-Files to Enter the Dragon as far as influences.  In one campaign, fighting is this ugly desperate gamble while trying to get far enough away for guns to work.  In another, it's a chance to shine.  In still another, it's what you do when you run out of grenades or the bad guys have closed to the point where you'd be fragging yourself.As far as non-combat situations not being run in the same way -- in some ways, that's good.  In a finance game, I want to roll for the intricacies of my money matters.  In an Action Island game, I want that to be handled for me.  However, I still maintain that you get out what you put in.  If you're running "Monk" or "CSI" as a d20 Modern game, you probably won't get a ton of Strong/Fast heroes.  The real issue is that a lot of people are using d20 Modern to run D&D -- high-combat, low non-combat-related-skill-use games.  This is fine, if they're enjoying it, but yeah, that makes the Smart hero a ton weaker.  Just like the Strong/Tough hero is a big ol' loser in a comedy of manners.Hm.  I disagree here.  I don't expect heroes of each class to be balanced with each other in combat and out.  I expect Thug Batterson, Strong/Tough/Fast, to shine in combat, while Alister Wainwright, Smart/Charismatic/Dedicated, provides support and assistance.  Similarly, I expect Alister to shine in information gathering, intelligence processing, and people handling, while Thug pretty much sits on the sidelines.A Strong hero can take Bluff and Diplomacy with the Entrepreneur occupation -- and darn, it's fun to do so and blow people's preconceptions out of the water -- but he's spending most of his skill points to get decent at those, and none of his talents or bonus feats are going to make any of that stuff better.  Again, you can do it, and it's great to do so, but it's also unrealistic to expect a Strong Hero to out-talk a Charismatic Hero built for the same purpose (say, making friends and lying his way out of sticky situations), just as it's unrealistic to expect that Charismatic Hero to out-perform a Strong Hero built for the same combat purpose (say, melee combat).  The Strong Hero's occupation and the Charismatic Hero's choice of talents can both provide some helpful support for the other party member, but really, using a Strong Hero with the Entrepreneur occupation for your primary Face-man is like using a Bard as your primary healer.Thanks for the quote confirming that it does indeed work in a way that I think is stupid. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Ah, well.  I'll be House Ruling that one into common sense.  I don't always give my PCs a full minute to react -- so I think giving them the chance to delay it is fair.And a Strong3/Soldier2 can be taken down by a single grenade (lower saves on average, and our good friend the MDT), whereas a Fighter5 will keep on truckin'.  At low levels, yes, the flexibility of the d20 Modern classes gives them an edge, but at mid-level and beyond, the D&D power curve goes up a bunch, whereas the d20 Modern people remain relatively stable in terms of their power -- they're getting better, but at a pretty steady rate.d20 Modern characters tend to have lower BABs, lower Defenses, and lower saves.  There are exceptions, of course, but generally speaking, I believe this to be true.  And I think it's a good thing -- it keeps things interesting.  I can send a high-level d20 Modern bad guy against my party and have it be interesting, rather than a cakewalk or an automatic deathtrap.  High-level people can still die with an unlucky roll, and everyone seems to have more flexibility at the cost of focused power.re:Multiclassing:I see that as another focus/flexibility tradeoff.  One interpretation is that the hero should get Plan at 5th level, so that he's got that bonus as quickly as possible.  Another interpretation is that he should get it at 7th or 9th level -- it takes longer to get, but he's getting other stuff all the while, and now, by the time he gets it, he can actually do some fun stuff with it, since his BAB is gonna be higher.  It won't be "Use plan to raise my chances of hitting from miniscule to tiny".  It'll be a really viable option for giving yourself an extra boost when possible.I think that a lot of people get caught in the D&D mindset, where, really, it's silly for a wizard to multiclass for any reason beyond roleplaying, since their power scales so hugely that a Fighter5/Wizard5 who finally gets Fireball at 10th level finds himself with a spell that's useless against the things his party is fighting.  In d20 Modern, those talents seem to be pretty useful at all levels.Another tradeoff.  I sometimes let my players use fractional BAB progression (ie, Smart1/Charismatic1/Dedicated1/Tough1/Fast1 gets a BAB of .5 + .5 + .75 + .75 + .75, not +0), but really, having the BAB rules in effect as they are keeps players honest in terms of getting a class for more than one level.  Well, yes.  Very true, at least in terms of damage dishing.  On the other hand, depending on what kind of d20 Modern campaign you're running...- In an armed forces campaign, a 10th level Smart/Charismatic can inspire his troops a bunch, use Plan to help out his team before engagements, and has a BAB high enough to use Autofire and grenades in combat.  He's not a sniper by any stretch.  The sniper is the sniper.  The sniper also probably has all of five skills with any significant ranks, whereas the Smart/Charismatic is all over the place.- In a Demon-hunting campaign, a 10th level Dedicated/Smart can use Improved Aid another to increase his friends' chance to hit, making himself the world's most lovable flanking partner, and he's got the Knowledge ranks to know that the big scaly thing with the big purple ramlike horns is vulnerable to weapons soaked in green tea.  (IMC, the party loves the Smart/Field Scientist/Techie, who can't fight terribly well but whose combination of mechanical improvisation and arcane knowledge lets the party dish out damage with improvised flamethrowers and figure out why their bullets aren't hurting the animated skeletal bikers...)Mental folks are only useless in combat if your idea of combat effectiveness is limited to how much damage you personally dish out or your GM sets up combats so that you've got no real chance to inspire people, come up with plans, or use Knowledge ranks to help yourself out.  If that's true, then yeah, that's a bad campaign to play a mental person.Weirdly, we've got a lot of combat, but nobody in my group is playing a Strong Hero.  Well, one guy is Strong2/Charismatic5, but he's not exactly a tank...</blockquote>

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