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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1641787" data-attributes="member: 5171">I'm not sure what your point is here.  (Really -- not trying to be rude.)  All those modes are supported by d20 Modern rules, and all modes of skill usage are supported by d20 Modern rules, too.  A PC with primarily mental class levels will be as useful or as useless as the campaign and GM allow him to be.Right.  Which is what I think happens.  I think that mental classes do contribute to the combat.  They just don't contribute as directly as the physical classes, or at quite the same level.  They're good support people -- just like the physical class people can be good support people in skill usage situations (or at least the Strong and Tough are -- the Fast hero has enough points to get pretty good with the skills all by himself).What confuses me is that I brought up these points because you said that mental PCs aren't as good as physical PCs in combat -- and now you're correcting me by saying that mental PCs do contribute to combats.  So what exactly does this do to your original point -- which was, IIRC, something like, "I wanted mental PCs to be balanced in combat, but instead they're useless"?  Am I radically misinterpreting you, or did you just disprove your own point?I'm confused again.  Is this you being cute, or do you seriously believe that a 5th level fighter is less powerful than a Strong3/Soldier2?  The Strong/Soldier has a better Defense value only if he sank a whole mess of feats into armor proficiency, because that Fighter got all three armor proficiencies for free, and will be wearing Full Plate unless he has some compelling reason not to.  A 5th level fighter with a Con and attack stat (Str/Dex) of 14 has a BAB of +5, an attack at +7 with any weapon or +8 with a focused weapon, an average of (10+4d10+10) 42 hit points, and a Fort save of +6 without any save-boosting feats.  A Strong3/Soldier2 with the same stats has a BAB of +4, an attack at +6 with any weapon or +7 with a focused weapon, an average of (8+2d8+2d10+10) 38 hit points, and that same Fort save of +6 -- but he's making that Fort save every time he takes 14 or more points damage from a single hit.I certainly agree that a Strong3/Soldier2 is a lot more flexible than a Fighter5 -- he's got a wide range of bonus feats and class talents to choose from.  But that's not what we're talking about. When I made the flexibility comment, you responded with:I really don't know where you're going here.  You're tossing out unsubstantiated and inarguable stuff like "that other stuff may not be as fun or useful".  Sure, it may be.  A player who doesn't find the Smart talent trees fun and useful shouldn't play a Smart character.  But based on your original post, a bunch of people responded with "Actually, in my game, we have a lot of Smart or Charismatic people," so the issue of them not being useful or fun is one that, while not wholly subjective, is entirely based on the player and the gaming group and the campaign.To risk redundancy: I wouldn't play a Smart/Charismatic if I knew that the GM was going to have us kicking in doors and blowing away wave after wave of mindless zombies with nary a pause between.  I might play a Strong/Smart or Tough/Charismatic or Fast/Dedicated, because that would let me fight decently, take hits decently, and contribute in some unique ways to the team.  However, if I wanted to play it safe, it'd be a Strong/Tough, Fast/Tough, or Strong/Fast all the way.A Smart/Charismatic, though, is a great choice for a skill-based intrigue game, or a game centered on alliances and diplomacy and problem-solving rather than combat.  It's also a great choice for a character in a game that will have some combat but not a ton, and who is happy with taking a support role in such a game -- with Plan or Coordinate, he gives his teammates great bonuses (and Plan and Coordinate bonuses stack, since they're Circumstance and Unnamed (but likely Morale), respectively), and out of combat, he gives his buddies a much-needed edge in the skills arena.A GM could prevent Inspire by putting the party in a fight in which they can't hear each other (a fight in a loud machine factory, for example), and could prevent Plan by hitting the PCs with a surprise attack, or changing the circumstances in some other way so that the Plan no longer applies to the situation.  It can be done.  It's not particularly nice, and you shouldn't do it very often (any more often than you'd have enemies with Unbalance Opponent fight the PC who gave himself an 18 Strength -- every once in awhile, it's good for tension, but it's lame to overuse it to eliminate your PCs' powers), but it can be done.Agree here, of course, although one other interesting note: an often underutilized method of character building is to take classes for which you don't have a high score.  A guy with a Strength of 12 really benefits from a few levels of Strong Hero -- he's doing more damage (or getting bonuses on his Jump checks, if you're into that kind of thing) and hitting more often.  A guy with a Charisma of 11 and 5 levels of Charismatic Hero might not be the idiot you think: With Fast-Talk, he's given himself more than enough bonuses on Bluff and Diplomacy to make up for that relatively low Charisma, or with Favor, which isn't a stat-dependent talent, he can do some pretty useful stuff.  Or the average-Int Smart hero, who takes a few levels of the class to gain a ton of skill points and some skill bonuses on Knowledge checks (through Savant, for example).  That's a side-note, though.</blockquote>

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