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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7266373" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm a little lost for your point here.250 gold buys 1 additional pistol, that gives you 8 attack before you need to reload, after 5th level and ignoring action surge, that is 4 rounds of combat. The majority of combats will end by that point, from what I have heard. Sure, it is expensive, but it is also the focus of the class and while a melee character is looking for 1500 gold for his platemail the gunslinger could go for six of those pistols... so I'm not seeing a major inconvenience here. Sure, you may have some other use for the money, but if you want to be the "gun guy" you probably want to spend your money on guns. Huh, you are technically correct. And the wording of Crossbow expert could be interpreted as breaking that rather arbitrary limitation. I guess DM fiat on being allowed to dual-wield pistols, which has been a combat trope since forever. But, I have no idea how you figure you have a hand free if both hands are holding a hand crossbow. Do you character's typically have three arms? Or do you juggle item interactions to make this technicality work?Whose bringing up magic? I mean, I don't often consider the availability of magical items that the DM may or may not give me when I plan my build. Yes, magical weapons eventually become important, but that is why you talk to the DM about enchanting your stuff or finding something equivalent. I mean otherwise, I'd play nothing other than wizards or Sword and Board melee characters, since magical one-handed melee weapons and magical staffs and wands are by far the most numerous items and therefore I am more likely to find them, and multiples even.Guns aren't exclusive, but the Gunslinger's proficiency with them is (3rd level ability). They aren't martial or simple weapons, they are firearms. Battlemaster would need to take the weapon master feat to gain proficiency with them, and even then they are only getting proficiency in the guns they declare. One of the implied features (due to this being the subclass used by Talisen for his character Percy) is the ability to craft new guns and improve on the guns you have. So, while it may be possible for the Gunslinger to craft a better gun and then immediately use it, a Battlemaster could only use the weapons he spent a feat to gain access to.  Not going to argue that battlemaster starts a little earlier with maneuvers and those maneuvers are definitely awesome. They definitely are good at doing what they were built to do. However, Torso shot has a few distinct advantages over Pushing attack. No size limitation and no save being big ones. I'd argue one of the better uses of a pushing ability is to get people out of melee with dangerous enemies. Those tend to have decent or even high strength scores, so the lack of a save is very useful where the battlemaster might have trouble pushing someone vs a strength save. The no size limit means you can knock dragons back a few steps, which battlemasters can't even attempt. Menacing and Goading could give disadvantage, menacing only if the enemy can be frightened and goading against everyone except for you, but I think the bigger thing here is the damage riders. Right? And yeah, eventually adding an additional 1d12 to your damage is hard to beat. Superiority dice are amazing. Not arguing that point. Or they are playing smart or they are lucky. Grit comes back in two instances. Roll a crit (lucky) or kill an enemy (playing smart). So, let's say the 3rd level party is fighting Goblins and two bugbears, and the DM was kind enough to let the gunslinger start with a pistol. Battlemaster has 4 dice at a d8, Gunslinger has 2 gritBattlemaster is hard limited to 4 manuevers, but with 8 hp a pop, the gunslinger might easily kill a goblin a shot, meaning they can spend grit for deadeye most turns and still feel good about getting that spent grit back . 6 goblins, the Gunslinger could easily end up using Deadeye 8 times compared to the guarenteed 4 of the Battlemaster. And any crits also get Grit back, and constant advantage makes crits more likely. Plus, if they both spend all their points in this fight, only the Gunslinger has a chance to get more back when they are ambushed by the wolves that were released by the enemies further ahead. It is a gamble, and yeah, works better if you roll and get lucky stats, or are willing to drop constitution to make wisdom and dex your only focuses. But, an 18 Wisdom is not difficult to get even if you take feats instead of ASIs because you grab a wisdom dex class and grab some feats that increase wisdom or just spend a single ASIIs it slightly worse than the Battlemaster? Sure, probably is, Battlemaster is one of the best subclasses in the game. Super Versatile, great damage potential, lots of options.But, that doesn't mean Gunslinger doesn't have a few tricks that people might be interested in, maybe they'll want to multi-class Assassin and build a sniper. My point has never been that the Gunslinger is superior, just that it is close enough that you can still have a blast playing it and you aren't going to feel competely overshadowed by the other classes doing their thing. It's a little MAD, it could maybe be tweaked a little bit here and there if people feel it isn't as good as they want it to be, but I don't want to leave people reading this thread with the false impression that this is another 4 elements monk or original Beastmaster.</blockquote>

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