Mercy versus Justice

[caudor]

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one; perhaps someone can help me out.

I'm attempting to create two good deities for my homebrew campaign...one to represent "Mercy" and the other "Justice".

It occurs to me that at times, these two aspects of good may be in conflict--especially over the fate of evildoers. Is it likely that two forces of good would actually battle each other over such differences?

In looking at the Forgotten Realms pantheon (which I tried to use as a model), it appears to me that Ilmater and Tyr get along just fine, or at least co-exist on the 'good side'.

Am I missing something? Would this be a matter of Law versus Choas rather than Good vs Good?

 

[jgbrowning]

I wouldn't be surprised if "mercy" was attacked by "justice" for being to "soft" on evil doers. I'd also think that "justice" would consider itself more "mercyful" than "mercy" when they did it.

Quote from Justice: "Mercy is knowing when Justice should prevail!"

Quote from Mercy: "Justice is only just when applied under the doctrine of Mercy!"

I'd put them *alignment wize* the way you want them, you can rationalize how they work after.

joe b.

 

[bret]

Even good friends can come to blows under the wrong circumstances. There is nothing that says two LG churchs couldn't be bitter enemies. Just because they are LG doesn't automatically make them friends.

The two deities may or may not cooperate. It depends on exact domains and deity alignment.

Personally, I would tend to put Justice as a Lawful Neutral and Mercy Neutral Good alignment. Have to mix them with other concepts to make them both LG. I can see a number of situations where a god of justice may not believe in tempering it with mercy.

 

[Gothmog]

While I am not sure that followers of gods of mercy and justice would get into outright warfare or physical violence, they certainly would come into conflict over differing points of view and doctrine. I think that having two "good" aligned religions being antagonistic towards each other at times is a good idea that helps to build a believable world with greater depth. PCs will have to choose which of two potentially good causes they support. I have done the same in my campaign with gods of mercy vs. justice, law/divine right rule vs. freedom, and even with neutral/evil deities such as death vs murder, or knowledge vs. barbarism. It is much more interesting than the typical good/evil or law/chaos axes that are overused so much.

 

[caudor]

Thanks for the excellent feedback...my mind is purring. I hadn't considered Knowledge vs Barbarism, that's excellent. I'll have to work that in.

I'd somehow like to set this up where evil folks fear both of these deities equally, even though they might disagree on specific doctrine. The non-violent conflict would make it interesting. Or perhaps Justice does try to bully Mercy a time or two.

Nevertheless, I don't want a 'whimpy' Mercy deity either. But it is hard to imagine the Mercy group being anything other than 'pacifists', even if I add 'courage' to the portfolio.

Anyone have a angle that would work? Perhaps Mercy views death as a merciful end to an evil life? Or sees Justice as a mere guise for vengeance?

Feel free to hop in

 

[Harlock]

I think gods of Justice and Mercy could get along very well. In fact, I find it interesting that this question arose so soon after Easter. Justice and Mercy can be represented by the same god so surely it can work out for two? Is Justice served in all things? Does it apply more to an afterlife? When should mercy apply? How far does mercy go? So far as not to punish? Mercy is forgiving AND forgetting? Can Justice be served by a punishment but Mercy allow for a chance to prove reform before a full punishment is applied? Think of parole. In a world with magic you can pretty much know someone's feelings and if they are truly repentent or not, so mercy should be easy. Does a convict feel bad for his crime? Is he reformed? Will he do it again? Okay, he's either free to go on with his life or he's not learned a lesson. It's obviously not a perfect system, but no system on this Earth is perfect in that regard either. Food for thought I hope, at any rate.

 

[kenjib]

One possible angle would be mercy for those who repent and righteous wrath for those who don't!

A less pure form of mercy for sure, but no less possible for a deity. It could be a dualist god - or perhaps even a triumvirate. In the female aspect she is Alator the Merciful, whose compassion heals the land and brings bounty. In the male aspect he is Kalad the Wrathful, who brings down a righteous fiery destruction on the wicked and depraved -- purification by fire. The two are like two sides of a coin. In totality, the sum of both aspects, the deity is called Salmivri and is genderless.

This dynamic has interesting implications for family life of followers. It clearly delineates strict roles for the father and mother, and elevates marriage as a divine rite of unity. It would make most sense to me in an area with very fertile land but torn constantly by war, or a floodplain where seasons of fertility and flood are interspersed -- like the early fertile crescent, the nile river valley, or even some fire-renewal based ecologies like savanna. It would make lots of sense for such a god to appear under those conditions.

Both aspects are good, and neither of them follow the strict criteria of justice. An adherent of justice would find this dispensation capricious and error-ridden.

 

[caudor]

One possible angle would be mercy for those who repent and righteous wrath for those who don't!

A less pure form of mercy for sure, but no less possible for a deity. It could be a dualist god - or perhaps even a triumvirate. In the female aspect she is Alator the Merciful, whose compassion heals the land and brings bounty. In the male aspect he is Kalad the Wrathful, who brings down a righteous fiery destruction on the wicked and depraved -- purification by fire. The two are like two sides of a coin. In totality, the sum of both aspects, the deity is called Salmivri and is genderless.

This dynamic has interesting implications for family life of followers. It clearly delineates strict roles for the father and mother, and elevates marriage as a divine rite of unity. It would make most sense to me in an area with very fertile land but torn constantly by war, or a floodplain where seasons of fertility and flood are interspersed -- like the early fertile crescent, the nile river valley, or even some fire-renewal based ecologies like savanna. It would make lots of sense for such a god to appear under those conditions.

Both aspects are good, and neither of them follow the strict criteria of justice. An adherent of justice would find this dispensation capricious and error-ridden.

Wow, that is just excellent. Thanks you!

 

[fnork de sporg]

I see no reason why two lawful good religions couldn't be bitter, even violent, rivals or enemies. That they worship two aspects of the same diety is just icing on the cake.

Perhaps the mercy folk are all about he subdual damage and the taking of captive. Perhops they have huge rison filled with evil beings, all fo whom are subjected to daily philisophical lessons and discussions meant to turn them from the way of evil. I think there's afeat in the Book of Hallowed Might for doing just that.

Of course the Justice-folks will thin that kind of thing madness, and potentially evil. They will to kill those captive before they can be brought back to the secure prisons. I can see them ambushing a Mercy-folk caravan, breaking open their caged wagons, or maybe just setting them on fire. I can lso picture Mercy-folk showing up at a Justice-types battle field, healing the downed enemy trooper and hauling them danger. Again, not something the Justice-types will appreciate.


Another thing you will want to think about is how pwerful the gods of evil are, or even if the yexist! Such a role could easily be filled by the many devils and demons that already exist in d&d cosmology. For instance, in Forgotten Realms the good gods are predisposed to working with each other, even if they have wildly opposing ideologies, because if they do not unite as a common fron the various evil eities would surely overwhelm them.

Good characters need to be in a place of power and safety in order for hubris to take hold. It's hard to be overconfident when victory is never a sure thing.

 

[S'mon]

I would tend to see Justice as LG and Mercy as NG or maybe CG (depending on whether it's applied in opposition to Justice). Justice isn't LN - Law & Order are LN, Justice is good Law (the giving to everyone of their just deserts).

"Justice tempered with Mercy" sounds like a good definition of NG. Mercy with no regard to Justice may be CG.

Edit: "Mercy with no regard to Justice may be CG" - eg healing and nurturing the serial killer (or vampire, demon, whatever) on the off-chance that he'll repent & turn good, I'd see as CG.
"Eye for an eye" justice - eg execute all convicted murderers - would be LG.

Absolute Order - execute all thieves so they can't offend again - would be LN, or LE if it was arbitrary (Wearing red on a Sunday? Die!) or took no account of mitigating circumstances ("Stealing bread to feed your starving family? Die!").

I see NG as the balancing of Justice and Mercy - eg maybe murderers aren't punished to the extent of the harm they've inflicted (ie by death) but neither are they allowed to go free or given token punishment; perhaps they're imprisoned only as long as they're thought to be a danger, while efforts are made to reform them.

I don't see CG as an alignment for exclusively Mercy-driven milksops though, it's one possibility, CG may be lone avenger vigilantes like Batman, but the important thing about CG is that they value the individual over the group. Likewise LG types may be nurterers - Mother Theresa types - but they value the group over the individual.