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messy's 4e newbie questions thread
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<blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 6211261" data-attributes="member: 1165"><p>I think Dragonborn are silly too, but a DM who doesn't like them can ban them. (Well, should be able to. It doesn't work in practice.)</p><p></p><p>No, I haven't banned them. I don't dislike them that much.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again yes. You can keep a low Con if you really want to. I haven't done this in 4e, but in Gamma World 7e (same basic rules) I had a PC with a Con score of <strong>5</strong>, and didn't die. In my current campaign, one of my PCs is an eladrin rogue with Con 8. He hasn't complained about that. (Eladrin don't take a Con penalty, so it's obviously his choice.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. You will never see a PC like that though. Ability score selections are very predictable, and the penalties for having a low stat where you shouldn't is very obvious.</p><p></p><p>For instance, a fighter will probably have a Strength of 18 or even 20 (you want as high an attack bonus as possible), and this will also boost your Fort defense. Con will boost your Fort defense too, but you only use the higher of the two stats. What is the difference between a dwarf fighter with Con 16 and one with Con 20? You lose 4 hit points and 2 healing surges, but you would spend those extra points in Wisdom (boost your low Will defense, plus improve your Combat Superiority class feature). If you desperately want more healing surges, I would point to the Durable feat. But I know this is theorycraft and not a real PC.</p><p></p><p>Those stats might seem high, but WotC must have noticed the effect that high point buy has on balance. Players want high stats for their PCs, so WotC gives you high stats. In fact, it makes you require high stats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To do that much damage, you would need to crit (you only get 30 on a 3d10 if you roll max damage, which happens on a crit, on average you would get 23 damage). And a warlock is a striker, so they're supposed to do a lot of damage with a daily. Note that if that warlock had a +1 implement, he would roll an extra 1d6 damage on a crit, but that isn't maximized, so you could have done 48 damage.</p><p></p><p>That's not as crazy as it looks. In 3rd Edition, a CR 1 opponent probably didn't have more than 20 hit points, and many might only have 5 or 6. 4e is sometimes criticized because even a 1st-level (non-minion) opponent usually needs to get hit at least twice before it drops.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good question. I don't know. I presume if there's no specific rule about that, you would use the improvised weapon rules (but those are identical to unarmed attacks). Losing your weapon virtually never happens in 4e, and grappling doesn't prevent you from using a two-handed weapon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>NO. Absolutely not! There's no more +X shields. It keeps the math simpler. (More on magic item math in a bit.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a few cleric powers in the Player's Handbook like that. Invokers, and wizards in Arcane Power, get a bunch more. Essentials warlocks get them. And then more splats have a few more.</p><p></p><p>In general, summoning got hit by the nerf stick. Summons no longer mess with the action economy. The PC must spend their actions on the summon (so you can attack, or the summon can attack, but not both). You can potentially squeeze extra actions because the summon often gets opportunity attacks. This doesn't increase the number of opportunity attacks you can get per turn strictly speaking, but occupying two spaces on the battlefield increases the likelihood that someone will provoke an opportunity attack. Many summons actually have pretty good opportunity attacks.</p><p></p><p>There's a very few non-core long-term summoning rituals. All the ones I've seen are around 15th or 16th-level and up. And you need the Adjure ritual to make them stick around. (And yes, you can blow that skill challenge, in which case you become the servant!)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>CHEERS!</p><p></p><p>A typical PC has three or four items: one of level +1, one of level, one of level -1, and enough money for a fourth (but you might spend that on ritual components, consumables, etc).</p><p></p><p>In 3e, you needed the Big Six items. You needed stat-boosting items (at least one, but often several), a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, magical armor (and possibly a shield), and a magical weapon. Those overlap a bit though. This was because PCs didn't gain AC with level, so the majority of your expenses went into not having terrible AC. This was one area where wizards had an advantage (you had lots of ways of making your poor AC irrelevant). Due to the necessity of buying items the right way, PCs rarely were able to buy "cool items".</p><p></p><p>In 4e, there's only the Big Three: weapon or implement, amulet of protection, and magic armor. Even then, these items often have additional cool effects. The rate of increase is very predictable, so (unlike 3e) inherent bonuses work very well in 4e.</p><p></p><p>A lot of those "required" items in 3e, while they exist in 4e, aren't required. There's a Ring of Protection. I think it can reduce incoming damage once per day. Spend your money on a cool wondrous item instead.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Epic is sadly undersupported. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A poorly-named product stream <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> Essentials is cool, it just has marketing problems. Some people saw it as an "alternate core" set or a new half edition. In practice, you can have Essentials and non-Essentials PCs in the same party, and you won't notice any balance problems at all.</p><p></p><p>The first Essentials product is Heroes of the Fallen Lands. (Or is it Forgotten Lands?) It has new versions of the core four classes: fighter (knight and slayer), rogue (thief), cleric (warpriest) and wizard (mage).</p><p></p><p>These new versions are billed as being "simpler". Certainly the knight, slayer, and thief are simpler than their PH1 version, but the mage is almost identical, and the warpriest seems more complicated to me. Note that "simpler" also means "less choice". This can be a bug or a feature, depending on your views.</p><p></p><p>Some fans didn't like daily powers for martial classes, so the knight, slayer, and thief don't have any. The knight is very similar to the PH1 fighter, but the slayer is a <em>striker</em> that works much more like a 2e or 3e fighter than a 4e fighter. Naturally, for every fan who wanted those daily powers gone, there are those who were unhappy with this. Fortunately, Essentials isn't a rules revision, so you have the choice.</p><p></p><p>The mage has three subclasses in the first Essentials book: Enchanter, Evoker, and Illusionist. (If you're looking to play a generalist wizard, stick to the PH1.) Because the different versions of the wizard are so similar, I see Essential's new wizard powers are basically an extra set of core spells.</p><p></p><p>Since then, there's been numerous Essentials players books, called Heroes of X... where X is Shadow, the Elemental Chaos, the Feywild, etc. Some of these books have been well-received, others not so much.</p><p></p><p>The Expertise line of feats, proliferating in Essentials, is controversial. While tightening up the math, people noted that PCs' attack bonuses fall behind (by about 1 point per tier). The feats "solve" this but are so good that everyone has to buy one. Usually there's an extra benefit beyond the attack bonus that is thematically appropriate. (My wizard has Orb Expertise, which increases the amount of forced movement his powers dish out by 1. Orb wizards -- orbizards -- tend to take a lot of forced movement powers anyway.) DMs sometimes offer an expertise feat for free.</p><p></p><p>Magic item rules were changed. Someone else will have to inform you about this. I can't wrap my brain around the rules changes. (They're not all that big, but were controversial anyway.)</p><p></p><p>Not strictly related to Essentials, but shortly before Essentials came out, WotC updated problems with monster math and skill rules. These are available for free as errata. Essentials Monster Manuals are called Monster Vaults (there's two of them, and they're very good; I hope you haven't bought the MM1 as it's now very outdated). There's also a Rules Compendium and other such products that hold the same updates, plus more DM advice.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Three officially, but in practice any book that says Heroes of the X is a Player's Handbook, and there's quite a few of those.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Two. The Dungeon Master's Kit (from Essentials) is effectively a third one.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="(Psi)SeveredHead, post: 6211261, member: 1165"] I think Dragonborn are silly too, but a DM who doesn't like them can ban them. (Well, should be able to. It doesn't work in practice.) No, I haven't banned them. I don't dislike them that much. Yes. Again yes. You can keep a low Con if you really want to. I haven't done this in 4e, but in Gamma World 7e (same basic rules) I had a PC with a Con score of [b]5[/b], and didn't die. In my current campaign, one of my PCs is an eladrin rogue with Con 8. He hasn't complained about that. (Eladrin don't take a Con penalty, so it's obviously his choice.) Yes. You will never see a PC like that though. Ability score selections are very predictable, and the penalties for having a low stat where you shouldn't is very obvious. For instance, a fighter will probably have a Strength of 18 or even 20 (you want as high an attack bonus as possible), and this will also boost your Fort defense. Con will boost your Fort defense too, but you only use the higher of the two stats. What is the difference between a dwarf fighter with Con 16 and one with Con 20? You lose 4 hit points and 2 healing surges, but you would spend those extra points in Wisdom (boost your low Will defense, plus improve your Combat Superiority class feature). If you desperately want more healing surges, I would point to the Durable feat. But I know this is theorycraft and not a real PC. Those stats might seem high, but WotC must have noticed the effect that high point buy has on balance. Players want high stats for their PCs, so WotC gives you high stats. In fact, it makes you require high stats. To do that much damage, you would need to crit (you only get 30 on a 3d10 if you roll max damage, which happens on a crit, on average you would get 23 damage). And a warlock is a striker, so they're supposed to do a lot of damage with a daily. Note that if that warlock had a +1 implement, he would roll an extra 1d6 damage on a crit, but that isn't maximized, so you could have done 48 damage. That's not as crazy as it looks. In 3rd Edition, a CR 1 opponent probably didn't have more than 20 hit points, and many might only have 5 or 6. 4e is sometimes criticized because even a 1st-level (non-minion) opponent usually needs to get hit at least twice before it drops. Good question. I don't know. I presume if there's no specific rule about that, you would use the improvised weapon rules (but those are identical to unarmed attacks). Losing your weapon virtually never happens in 4e, and grappling doesn't prevent you from using a two-handed weapon. NO. Absolutely not! There's no more +X shields. It keeps the math simpler. (More on magic item math in a bit.) There's a few cleric powers in the Player's Handbook like that. Invokers, and wizards in Arcane Power, get a bunch more. Essentials warlocks get them. And then more splats have a few more. In general, summoning got hit by the nerf stick. Summons no longer mess with the action economy. The PC must spend their actions on the summon (so you can attack, or the summon can attack, but not both). You can potentially squeeze extra actions because the summon often gets opportunity attacks. This doesn't increase the number of opportunity attacks you can get per turn strictly speaking, but occupying two spaces on the battlefield increases the likelihood that someone will provoke an opportunity attack. Many summons actually have pretty good opportunity attacks. There's a very few non-core long-term summoning rituals. All the ones I've seen are around 15th or 16th-level and up. And you need the Adjure ritual to make them stick around. (And yes, you can blow that skill challenge, in which case you become the servant!) CHEERS! A typical PC has three or four items: one of level +1, one of level, one of level -1, and enough money for a fourth (but you might spend that on ritual components, consumables, etc). In 3e, you needed the Big Six items. You needed stat-boosting items (at least one, but often several), a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, magical armor (and possibly a shield), and a magical weapon. Those overlap a bit though. This was because PCs didn't gain AC with level, so the majority of your expenses went into not having terrible AC. This was one area where wizards had an advantage (you had lots of ways of making your poor AC irrelevant). Due to the necessity of buying items the right way, PCs rarely were able to buy "cool items". In 4e, there's only the Big Three: weapon or implement, amulet of protection, and magic armor. Even then, these items often have additional cool effects. The rate of increase is very predictable, so (unlike 3e) inherent bonuses work very well in 4e. A lot of those "required" items in 3e, while they exist in 4e, aren't required. There's a Ring of Protection. I think it can reduce incoming damage once per day. Spend your money on a cool wondrous item instead. Epic is sadly undersupported. :( A poorly-named product stream :( Essentials is cool, it just has marketing problems. Some people saw it as an "alternate core" set or a new half edition. In practice, you can have Essentials and non-Essentials PCs in the same party, and you won't notice any balance problems at all. The first Essentials product is Heroes of the Fallen Lands. (Or is it Forgotten Lands?) It has new versions of the core four classes: fighter (knight and slayer), rogue (thief), cleric (warpriest) and wizard (mage). These new versions are billed as being "simpler". Certainly the knight, slayer, and thief are simpler than their PH1 version, but the mage is almost identical, and the warpriest seems more complicated to me. Note that "simpler" also means "less choice". This can be a bug or a feature, depending on your views. Some fans didn't like daily powers for martial classes, so the knight, slayer, and thief don't have any. The knight is very similar to the PH1 fighter, but the slayer is a [i]striker[/i] that works much more like a 2e or 3e fighter than a 4e fighter. Naturally, for every fan who wanted those daily powers gone, there are those who were unhappy with this. Fortunately, Essentials isn't a rules revision, so you have the choice. The mage has three subclasses in the first Essentials book: Enchanter, Evoker, and Illusionist. (If you're looking to play a generalist wizard, stick to the PH1.) Because the different versions of the wizard are so similar, I see Essential's new wizard powers are basically an extra set of core spells. Since then, there's been numerous Essentials players books, called Heroes of X... where X is Shadow, the Elemental Chaos, the Feywild, etc. Some of these books have been well-received, others not so much. The Expertise line of feats, proliferating in Essentials, is controversial. While tightening up the math, people noted that PCs' attack bonuses fall behind (by about 1 point per tier). The feats "solve" this but are so good that everyone has to buy one. Usually there's an extra benefit beyond the attack bonus that is thematically appropriate. (My wizard has Orb Expertise, which increases the amount of forced movement his powers dish out by 1. Orb wizards -- orbizards -- tend to take a lot of forced movement powers anyway.) DMs sometimes offer an expertise feat for free. Magic item rules were changed. Someone else will have to inform you about this. I can't wrap my brain around the rules changes. (They're not all that big, but were controversial anyway.) Not strictly related to Essentials, but shortly before Essentials came out, WotC updated problems with monster math and skill rules. These are available for free as errata. Essentials Monster Manuals are called Monster Vaults (there's two of them, and they're very good; I hope you haven't bought the MM1 as it's now very outdated). There's also a Rules Compendium and other such products that hold the same updates, plus more DM advice. Three officially, but in practice any book that says Heroes of the X is a Player's Handbook, and there's quite a few of those. Two. The Dungeon Master's Kit (from Essentials) is effectively a third one. [/QUOTE]
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