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<blockquote data-quote="Majere" data-source="post: 1388478" data-attributes="member: 13916">How can you apply tein before cold, but still manage to twin the &quot;cold fireball.&quot; If you're twinning a cold fireball, obviously cold substitution has been applied before twin.Same here. How can you apply twin first, but still see empower?EasyWhen you twin the spell you twin EVERYTHING including the metamagic effects.Thus is I apply cold and the twin:1) I first have a cold type fireball to which Im going to apply the twin metamagic2) I twin the cold fireballResult: Two cold fireballsConversely, I apply twin then cold:1) I first apply twin giving me two fireballs to which the cold metamagic will be applied. 2) I apply the cold substitution to BOTH fireballsResult: Two cold fireballsThere is no difference in order as long as you are consistant in the fact that twin copies BOTH the spell and metamagic.And no, there is no support for my interpretation...... Except that my interpretation doent lead to endless contradictions and ridiculous results.I dont need to invent or define the terms &quot;original&quot; &quot;base&quot; &quot;aspect&quot; &quot;parts of the spell&quot;. Infact I dont need to invent any new rules or definitions, I just apply everything all together.Caliban has to invent FOUR new terms, for his interpretation to make any sense. Now if his interpretation was correct surely these terms would already be defined in our DMG ?While my explanation is not explicitly stated anywhere, its is 100% more consistant with what IS explicitally stated. Thus I would suggest it is a better one.And no talking like a lawyer doesnt make me any more correct, but It does mean I know how to construct a valid and logical argument from the available material, and not make it up as I go along.Majere</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majere, post: 1388478, member: 13916"] How can you apply tein before cold, but still manage to twin the "cold fireball." If you're twinning a cold fireball, obviously cold substitution has been applied before twin. Same here. How can you apply twin first, but still see empower? Easy When you twin the spell you twin EVERYTHING including the metamagic effects. Thus is I apply cold and the twin: 1) I first have a cold type fireball to which Im going to apply the twin metamagic 2) I twin the cold fireball Result: Two cold fireballs Conversely, I apply twin then cold: 1) I first apply twin giving me two fireballs to which the cold metamagic will be applied. 2) I apply the cold substitution to BOTH fireballs Result: Two cold fireballs There is no difference in order as long as you are consistant in the fact that twin copies BOTH the spell and metamagic. And no, there is no support for my interpretation... ... Except that my interpretation doent lead to endless contradictions and ridiculous results. I dont need to invent or define the terms "original" "base" "aspect" "parts of the spell". Infact I dont need to invent any new rules or definitions, I just apply everything all together. Caliban has to invent FOUR new terms, for his interpretation to make any sense. Now if his interpretation was correct surely these terms would already be defined in our DMG ? While my explanation is not explicitly stated anywhere, its is 100% more consistant with what IS explicitally stated. Thus I would suggest it is a better one. And no talking like a lawyer doesnt make me any more correct, but It does mean I know how to construct a valid and logical argument from the available material, and not make it up as I go along. Majere [/QUOTE]

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