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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7553239" data-attributes="member: 6669384">For the record, using the feat <a href="https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution" target="_blank">Energy Substitution</a> the spell level doesn't change.I guess my view is that &quot;spell known&quot; would be Fireball, in this instance.&nbsp; Any Metamagic feats added are feats, add-ons, not actually part of the &quot;spell known&quot;.&nbsp; So you'd get Fireball in your book, not Iceball.If that wasn't the case then we'd effectively be adding new &quot;spells known&quot; to Sorceres and Bards.&nbsp; I mean if iceball and fireball are separate spells...Consider effects like Spell Immunity:&nbsp; A Cleric casts Spell Immunity (PHB page 282), they get to select certain spells that can't affect them.&nbsp; If they select Fireball, does that mean they can be harmed by Widened Fireball?&nbsp; Maximized Fireball?&nbsp; Quickened Fireball? If not, why would Energy Substitution on Fireball be any different?&nbsp; It's just another metamagic effect in the end, isn't it.Think of Metamagics like character Templates:&nbsp; Adding a Template like Half Fey or Lycanthrope to a Human doesn't change the fact that he/she is still Human.&nbsp; They still get their extra Feat, and extra Skill point per level.&nbsp; Otherwise, when someone gets bitten by a Werewolf they'd have to lose a Feat and a bunch of Skill points, and that would be really messed up.Also consider the difference in the rules for Metamagic feats:&nbsp; When used by a Spontaneous Caster (such as Sorcerer or Bard), applying the Feat turns the spell into a Full Round casting (unless they have the Rapid Metamagic Feat).&nbsp; So, would a Scroll scribed by a Sorcerer, with the Metamagic, be inherently different (slower) than the same spell scroll scribed by a Wizard, who doesn't have to add to the casting time?To my thinking the Sorcerer has to take a full round to read that scroll, no matter who scribed it, and the Wizard could read it as a Standard Action, exactly the way they could normally cast it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 7553239, member: 6669384"] For the record, using the feat [URL="https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution"]Energy Substitution[/URL] the spell level doesn't change. I guess my view is that "spell known" would be Fireball, in this instance. Any Metamagic feats added are feats, add-ons, not actually part of the "spell known". So you'd get Fireball in your book, not Iceball. If that wasn't the case then we'd effectively be adding new "spells known" to Sorceres and Bards. I mean if iceball and fireball are separate spells... Consider effects like Spell Immunity: A Cleric casts Spell Immunity (PHB page 282), they get to select certain spells that can't affect them. If they select Fireball, does that mean they can be harmed by Widened Fireball? Maximized Fireball? Quickened Fireball? If not, why would Energy Substitution on Fireball be any different? It's just another metamagic effect in the end, isn't it. Think of Metamagics like character Templates: Adding a Template like Half Fey or Lycanthrope to a Human doesn't change the fact that he/she is still Human. They still get their extra Feat, and extra Skill point per level. Otherwise, when someone gets bitten by a Werewolf they'd have to lose a Feat and a bunch of Skill points, and that would be really messed up. Also consider the difference in the rules for Metamagic feats: When used by a Spontaneous Caster (such as Sorcerer or Bard), applying the Feat turns the spell into a Full Round casting (unless they have the Rapid Metamagic Feat). So, would a Scroll scribed by a Sorcerer, with the Metamagic, be inherently different (slower) than the same spell scroll scribed by a Wizard, who doesn't have to add to the casting time? To my thinking the Sorcerer has to take a full round to read that scroll, no matter who scribed it, and the Wizard could read it as a Standard Action, exactly the way they could normally cast it. [/QUOTE]

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