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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6424094" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, I find the whole thread is starting to hit my &quot;ooky button&quot;.However, I'll say that by and large I find everyone analyzing this from an anachronistic view point.&nbsp; In an ancient society, it's not necessarily the case that women view their own sexuality as being anything but in the service of society, or that they have any value other than what utility that they can get out of the situation precisely because that's the world view that is imposed on them from an early age - that they are chattel and their value is in their sex the way an ox's value is in its ability to pull a plow.&nbsp; It's instructive to read the unabridged Kama Sutra for example as a religious manual discussing what is the moral way to have sex.&nbsp; The Kama Sutra suggests pretty much any sexual use is moral if you are obtaining a social advantage from doing so.&nbsp; Revenging yourself?&nbsp; Moral.&nbsp; Manipulating someone?&nbsp; Moral.&nbsp; Humiliating someone.&nbsp; Moral.&nbsp; Trying to close a business deal?&nbsp; Moral. Or think of the Socratic dialogues.&nbsp; I don't remember the exact one, but there is one were Socrates goes to a gym for young boys looking for a sexual partner, and his friend presents one of his young wards to Socrates.&nbsp; At the critical juncture, the young ward basically asks his protector, &quot;Would me pursuing this sexual relationship with Socrates be to your advantage?&nbsp; If so, I'll certainly do it.&quot;Now, it might be the case that if presented with alternative views of their gender and sexuality, that women and young boys would readily embrace them and come to see being traded like livestock as demeaning.&nbsp; But the idea that their exists this alternative view point for them to embrace is one taken for granted in the thread that isn't necessarily available in the reality of ancient settings.That said, the real question is just how productive is it to impose this sort of view of the world on your game, knowing just how much confusion and icky feelings its likely to cause.&nbsp;&nbsp; Again, I don't necessarily consider this line of imaginative thought into archaic sexual mores and archaic notions of justice to be especially productive.&nbsp;&nbsp; Even if these ideas are rolling around the background of the setting, I can't imagine that the particular plotline that would foreground these ideas and put the PCs in the middle of them is a good idea for the overwhelming majority of tables.&nbsp; Sexuality is a hard enough topic to pass by or discuss in a modern context without creating all sorts of confusion by introducing alternative viewpoints that people might mistake for endorsements or simply find offensive to talk about.And I'd seriously worry about the small number that were comfortable with it.&nbsp;&nbsp; You mentioned earlier about being in ones undiseased right mind.&nbsp; Let's please stay there if we can.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6424094, member: 4937"] Well, I find the whole thread is starting to hit my "ooky button". However, I'll say that by and large I find everyone analyzing this from an anachronistic view point. In an ancient society, it's not necessarily the case that women view their own sexuality as being anything but in the service of society, or that they have any value other than what utility that they can get out of the situation precisely because that's the world view that is imposed on them from an early age - that they are chattel and their value is in their sex the way an ox's value is in its ability to pull a plow. It's instructive to read the unabridged Kama Sutra for example as a religious manual discussing what is the moral way to have sex. The Kama Sutra suggests pretty much any sexual use is moral if you are obtaining a social advantage from doing so. Revenging yourself? Moral. Manipulating someone? Moral. Humiliating someone. Moral. Trying to close a business deal? Moral. Or think of the Socratic dialogues. I don't remember the exact one, but there is one were Socrates goes to a gym for young boys looking for a sexual partner, and his friend presents one of his young wards to Socrates. At the critical juncture, the young ward basically asks his protector, "Would me pursuing this sexual relationship with Socrates be to your advantage? If so, I'll certainly do it." Now, it might be the case that if presented with alternative views of their gender and sexuality, that women and young boys would readily embrace them and come to see being traded like livestock as demeaning. But the idea that their exists this alternative view point for them to embrace is one taken for granted in the thread that isn't necessarily available in the reality of ancient settings. That said, the real question is just how productive is it to impose this sort of view of the world on your game, knowing just how much confusion and icky feelings its likely to cause. Again, I don't necessarily consider this line of imaginative thought into archaic sexual mores and archaic notions of justice to be especially productive. Even if these ideas are rolling around the background of the setting, I can't imagine that the particular plotline that would foreground these ideas and put the PCs in the middle of them is a good idea for the overwhelming majority of tables. Sexuality is a hard enough topic to pass by or discuss in a modern context without creating all sorts of confusion by introducing alternative viewpoints that people might mistake for endorsements or simply find offensive to talk about. And I'd seriously worry about the small number that were comfortable with it. You mentioned earlier about being in ones undiseased right mind. Let's please stay there if we can. [/QUOTE]

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