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<blockquote data-quote="Reynard" data-source="post: 3929444" data-attributes="member: 467">Seriously?&nbsp; I mean, no snark intended,: you can't click on the collection of proposed 4E changes and see why some people look at that list and say, &quot;Oh my god, they have completely changed the game.&quot;?Because if you honestly can't, if you honesty shrug and say &quot;meh&quot; to the apparent changes to both fluff and crunch, the slaughtering of sacred cows and the alienation of the existing fanbase, I can only surmise that you aren't particularly invested in D&amp;D as it is written.&nbsp; That's not a dig, just an observation.But, the thing is, many people play D&amp;D &quot;out of the box&quot; with thier own bits and pieces, rules and fluff, sprinkled on top and mixed in a little.&nbsp; Most people don't craft whole fantasy universes -- they create some maps and some cities and some NPCs and anything they don't outright create, they call &quot;per core&quot;.&nbsp; While these elements might not be mytho-historical archetypes like Tquirky has suggested, they are D&amp;D archetypes and, as archetypes, they provide &quot;picture is worth a thousand words&quot; level of detail in a world that would otherwise be a few pages in a notebook.If you change the definition of the Dryad, for example, then you change the corner of the world of the homebrew where the dryad(s) dwell(s).&nbsp; Start stacking up those changes and suddenly 4E doesn't look like D&amp;D because your world doesn't look like it did.I hope that helps you understand what I mean.As to Dark Sun (and this goes for Spelljammer and Planescape and Ravenloft, too): total strawman.&nbsp; those worlds were created specifically to show that D&amp;D was more than &quot;vanilla fantasy&quot; and not only did they require a lot of work and fiddling (which happens to show off D&amp;D's versatility, but that's neither here nor there), the reason that 3E was still D&amp;D was because legions of dedicated fans could do roughly equivalent work to recreate them for the new D&amp;D.&nbsp; That isn't the same thing as being able to crack the book and carry on, but you couldn't have done that with those settings in any edition, either; you couldn't just crack open the AD&amp;D2 books and play Dark Sun with the AD&amp;D2 Dark Sun campaign setting, so why would you expect it to be any different with 3E.&nbsp; But you could crack open the 1E, 2E or 3E books and play Greyhawk, FR or even Krynn without much more than a list of place names and &quot;monsters that don't exist here&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Reynard, post: 3929444, member: 467"] Seriously? I mean, no snark intended,: you can't click on the collection of proposed 4E changes and see why some people look at that list and say, "Oh my god, they have completely changed the game."? Because if you honestly can't, if you honesty shrug and say "meh" to the apparent changes to both fluff and crunch, the slaughtering of sacred cows and the alienation of the existing fanbase, I can only surmise that you aren't particularly invested in D&D as it is written. That's not a dig, just an observation. But, the thing is, many people play D&D "out of the box" with thier own bits and pieces, rules and fluff, sprinkled on top and mixed in a little. Most people don't craft whole fantasy universes -- they create some maps and some cities and some NPCs and anything they don't outright create, they call "per core". While these elements might not be mytho-historical archetypes like Tquirky has suggested, they are D&D archetypes and, as archetypes, they provide "picture is worth a thousand words" level of detail in a world that would otherwise be a few pages in a notebook. If you change the definition of the Dryad, for example, then you change the corner of the world of the homebrew where the dryad(s) dwell(s). Start stacking up those changes and suddenly 4E doesn't look like D&D [i][b]because[/b][/i][b][/b] your world doesn't look like it did. I hope that helps you understand what I mean. As to Dark Sun (and this goes for Spelljammer and Planescape and Ravenloft, too): total strawman. those worlds were created specifically to show that D&D was more than "vanilla fantasy" and not only did they require a lot of work and fiddling (which happens to show off D&D's versatility, but that's neither here nor there), the reason that 3E was still D&D was because legions of dedicated fans could do roughly equivalent work to recreate them for the new D&D. That isn't the same thing as being able to crack the book and carry on, but you couldn't have done that with those settings in any edition, either; you couldn't just crack open the AD&D2 books and play Dark Sun with the AD&D2 Dark Sun campaign setting, so why would you expect it to be any different with 3E. But you could crack open the 1E, 2E or 3E books and play Greyhawk, FR or even Krynn without much more than a list of place names and "monsters that don't exist here". [/QUOTE]

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