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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9780296" data-attributes="member: 93670">except that we live in a world where this is a reality[spoiler][ATTACH=full]419984[/ATTACH]I could add dragonage skyrim & a whole bunch of others too[/spoiler]When players come to the table to play a modern ttrpg already familiar with roleplaying games through their experience playing  roleplaying games on their console/computer for years & the mechanics of the game encourage them to maintain the same mindset it is the fault of that ruleset for supporting that mindset rather than encouraging otherwise.Except you did not name a mechanical consequence, you named a build choice.[URL unfurl="true"]https://www.dictionary.com/browse/choice[/URL][URL unfurl="true"]https://www.dictionary.com/browse/consequence[/URL]That gets to why I passed over your "example" as a slip of the tongue rather than something showing a mechanical consequence when it was an example supporting my point of how narrative consequences rely on the players<a href="https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=9779369" target="_blank"> choosing to care</a>.When a paladin falls it looks like[spoiler="this"][ATTACH=full]419985[/ATTACH][/spoiler]That is very different from a player saying "can I switch my subclass to oathbreaker?".This is a critical distinction between consequence & choice when players come to the table already familiar with role playing games through fallout dragonage skyrim Wow BG3 & so on  because 5e removed and designed against the ones d&d ones had.  Examples include things like needing NPCs to willingly be involved in supporting the magic item churn players know their PCs need, likewise with regular supply of consumables beyond those randomly found, needing safe places to chill for days or weeks if recovery, potentially needing qualified individuals to supply long term care with healing, not wanting to have their <a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#exPaladins" target="_blank">paladin fall</a>/<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#exDruids" target="_blank">druid do a nono</a>/<a href="https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#exMonks" target="_blank">monk become non-lawful</a>/etc, or even the super credible risk of resting your way into a death spiral in an unsafe location one random encounter interruption at a time.d&d once had scads of obvious mechanical consequences to serve as teeth but that is no longer the case and the days of coming the table with a video game mindset being super unusual are at least a couple decades past.  Some of those would even support your earlier nods towards PCs becoming evil villains & such, but we are talking about 5e where they only apply for example of what the system doing more than relegating such things to the realm of problems that only matter as much as players themselves choose to make them matter.a screwdriver and a hammer are  different tools with different uses to be used for different tasks.  A hammer being a poor choice for working with screws and a screwdriver a poor choice for hammering nails says nothing about the tools themselves being overall superior or inferior in all tasks either.  I think most would consider such a value judgement of the tool just as odd as your confused misattribution or unwillingness to separate short rest classes taking short restsas distinct from long rest classes taking long rests when . talking about one or the otherNarrative consequences and mechanical costs are two different tools with different uses to be deployed for different reasons.  LOKG rests and SHORT tests are also discreet individual tools in the player's tool belt and they are used for different reasons with different results.  I suppose that I should also add to that and say that a short rest nova loop being performed by players with short rest classes does not require a long rest and does not power long rest classes into a nova loop capable state because long rest classes require a long rest to achieve such a thingThe trouble is that you are ignoring that the post you reference is talking about the scenario where the players come to the table with a video game mindset expecting to be able to SHORT rest up their SHORT rest nova capability every fight or two because a handful of classes are designed to look that way and overly generous resting rules encourage those players to see their nova loop as the intended play style.  A group like <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/mike-mearls-explains-why-your-boss-monsters-die-too-easily.715658/post-9775689" target="_blank">this</a> for example.  Coincidentally just a few posts later you jumped in quoting that post saying you've never seen players like that and asked me about them demanding LONG rests as if you did not recognize or accept that the classes at the core of the problem you were quoting were SHORT rest classes taking excessive SHORT rests</blockquote>

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