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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 3983853" data-attributes="member: 1003">The main problem with the 3E Cleric and 1E->3E Wizard was that they made the other classes irrelevant (eventually).  It's pretty clear that one of 4E's major design goals is to make sure the Martial classes remain relevant at all levels. I don't think anyone contests this.What I meant by "they aren't balanced" against each other is that they're doing really different things all the time; things that don't necessarily convert into a single currency (which is necessary to do accurate comparisons).  But that's OK, because (in theory) you still need a Fighter at 25th level.  He's relevant; the group cannot survive certain encounters without him.  And against certain threats he really shines in a certain way that Clerics cannot duplicate (at least, that's what marketing tells us).That looks like balance, but its subtlety different.  The primary difference is that he's only relevant as long as the DM threatens the group with threats that the Fighter is designed to handle.  In certain types of campaigns he may never use half of his abilities.  It really depends on the encounter mix.Now for DM's who only run published adventures, this is probably a null point. WotC won't ever release an Expedition to _________ that doesn't provide opportunities for every class to shine.But one of the reasons D&D has been so popular over the years is that it allows a great number of different campaign options.  You could always before have adventures designed for Martial-only, or Leader-only, or whatever.  Or "anyone but Defender" adventures.  Intrigues, Wizard-quests, etc.So where am I going with this?  I'm wondering if the idea the Roles is baked in to the 4E rules.  What if all of the encounter tables in the MM, and the dungeon design chapter's generator charts, and almost every other rule in the game are built on the assumption of "Every role is represented."  That would be a real headache for the DM who wanted to stray from that assumption.One of 3E's built in assumptions (which caused me headaches) were big colorful Christmas Tree characters.  I'm wondering if this is one of 4E's built in assumptions, and if so what the headache factor will be.</blockquote>

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