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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7673473" data-attributes="member: 996">In the case of the EK, the mechanics are just 'additions,' yes.  But the conceptual change is night & day.  The Paladin and Ranger, in that conceptual sense, are no more different from the Fighter than the EK, yet they are classes.  To me, that says that a sub-class can radically alter a class concept - to a degree comparable to being a different class. There's also no existing psionic full class.  And, if we get a good one, it'll likely do things no other class has done before.  If that's OK, why would it be wrong for a psionic sub-class to do something no sub-class has done before?It wouldn't be. They'd be picked as they always were.  Your choice would be psionic at 1st or arcane at 1st with the Bard.  Psionic does whatever it does to make it an Ardent, say, and Arcane makes it like the existing bard, including picking something else later. Exactly.  You want a radically new & different full class.  If all new full classes had to do only what existing ones do, you couldn't have that.  OTOH, you don't want 'just' some sub-classes, so you hold them up to a more exacting standard to demand they be blah.  Both a sub-class or sub-classes and one or more new classes would be valid design choices for introducing psionics to 5e. I wouldn't rule that out.  It's not like every class to show it's face in a past PH1 got the royal treatment in the 5e PH1. I'm sure there are.  I'm not so sure it's an important consideration in 5e design.  I think we'd be justified in expecting power points, attack/defense modes, &c - from a full psion, or even, in some form, from a Psion sub-class of Sorcerer.   Now you're sounding more nearly reasonable.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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