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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fuindordm" data-source="post: 7673769" data-attributes="member: 5435">Although I'm a strong advocate for mechanical and thematic differences between psionics and magic, I don't think it's necessary for them to have no overlap whatsoever.Consider:In many literary and real-world magical traditions, having "talent" is a prerequisite to learning ritual magic. People with the potential to become wizards (recognizable spellcasters close to the D&D archetype) are born with at least one natural ability, which more often than not we would recognize as psionic: prophetic dreams, second sight, aura reading, minor telekinesis, etc.  So I think it's perfectly all right to say that wizards learn to use their innate gifts to connect with and manipulate external sources of power (the Weave, pseudo-sentient arcane spirits, or whatever), while psions build upon their innate gifts as much as possible--eventually unlocking and expanding on more categories of psionic talent.  This implies some transparency between powers and spells, which I think is OK.  It also implies that all cantrips are basically innate psionic talents, which I also think is OK. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />  However, the wizard and the psion are training in very different directions from a small foundation. I DO want to see a psionics subsystem that has very little overlap with the arcane and divine spell lists. In particular, psionics should:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Avoid flash-bang effects.  A pyrokinetic can make things catch fire, but I don't want her throwing ectoplasmic fireballs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Excel at telepathy/charm effects.  Psionic charm person should still be first level, but objectively better than arcane charm person (or else the psion class should provide abilities that make charm effects objectively better). Some powers in this category should simply work differently from the similar spell, e.g. invisibility.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Avoid body transformation. I'm OK if Bill the pyschic warrior charges his unarmed strikes with ki to do more damage,  but not if he changes his forearm into a longsword blade.  I don't think psionics should allow any polymorph-type effect either.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Excel at mind-over-body effects such as feign death, poison resistance, self-healing, and subtle things like weight control (run across water, levitate)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Include A FEW signature high-level effects (sciences), such as energy absorption, quintessence, mind seed, dream travel...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Be much better at sustaining concentration than other classes (e.g. can always sustain two with no problem, proficiency in Con saves, feats or class abilities to maintain more than two...)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Finally, and most importantly, break the rules of arcane/divine spellcasting in some interesting ways, so that playing a psion feels very different from playing a wizard or cleric.  </li> </ul>That's enough to satisfy players, in my book, even if they keep the spell slots/spells known chassis.  Returning to the subject of magic/psi transparency, it makes perfect sense to me that psions can detect magic and wizards can detect psionics, and that the supernatural signatures of the two effects are similar enough for one spell/power can do the job.  (Detect Magic: detect any supernatural effect. You can measure the strength of the aura. If the effect is from a tradition in which you have class levels, you can also attempt to identify the specific spell or power.)  Similarly, if makes sense to me that a spell/power designed to end supernatural effects can work on either. (Dispel Magic: dispel any supernatural effect. If the effect is from a magical tradition in which you have class levels, the dispel works automatically for levels <= the level of the slot used to cast Dispel Magic. If the effect is from a different tradition, make a caster level check against DC 10+spell level.)  And frankly, I think that's enough--any other kind of transparency is very situational and can be ruled based on the spell/power descriptions. For example, a nomad psion might have a power similar to banishment, that works on summoned demons.  A wizard casting detect thoughts would be foiled by a psion with Thought Shield, and so on.  No special rules needed.</blockquote>

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