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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7520695" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Couldn't a 1st level PC roll with +2 for proficiency, +4 for Guidance, +4 for 18 stat? Which would be a 1 in 80 chance to hit DC 30.</p><p></p><p>My question is fairly simple - what is there (given bounded accuracy) that is feasible for a 15th level fighter but impossible for a 1st level fighter.</p><p></p><p>DC 25 or 30 doesn't fit that description: a 15th level fighter has +4 or +5 to CON, and even with +2 from Remarkable Athlete has almost no chance of succeeding at that attempt. (Literally no chance against DC 30 without further buffing, and even then the chance is very small.)</p><p></p><p>As I posted upthread, DC Heroes tries to deal with this issue via unbounded accuracy, that is, allowing very significant variation in both numbers on the PC sheet, and system-supported DCs.</p><p></p><p>4e tackles it completely differently, by looking first to the fiction to establish feasibility, and then having a chart to read off the DC given the level. MHRP and HeroQuest revised are both fundamentally the same in this respect. (Although obviously different in the technical devices they use to achieve this result.)</p><p></p><p>This is a red herring. I've already posted upthread that it's easy to change the fiction of 4e while preserving the mechanical framework, and WotC published two examples: the Neverwinter Campaign Setting compresses the fiction of Heroic and Paragon into the mechanical framework of Heroic (mostly by offering versions of beholders, mind flayers and the like statted at heroic tier); while Dark Sun extends the fiction of Heroic and Paragon tier over the three tiers of paly (by statting up the sorcerer kings, who in default 4e terms would be Paragon tier opponents, as epic).</p><p></p><p>The best description ever offered on these boards of the relationship between bonuses and fiction in 4e is the following:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>The contrast I am drawing between 4e and 5e is fairly straightforward: in 4e the <em>feasibility</em> of an action can be settled upon <em>independently</em> of mechanical minutiae - by reference to the ideas expressed in the tiers of play, to the prior established colour, to the flavour of the paragon paths at use in the game, etc. <em>Once that has been done</em>, the system has a simple way for setting a DC which will mechanically satisfy the desiderata for feasibility, namely, the DC-by-level-chart; and also a framework for integrating individual checks into the resolution of a scene, namely, skill challenges.</p><p></p><p>5e doesn't have a skill challenge system, and at least as bounded accuracy is presented appears to set a DC that is <em>prior to</em> the question of feasibility, and <em>settles</em> the question of feasibility rather than being an <em>afterthought</em> to the question of feasibility.</p><p></p><p>Some posts in this thread seem to say the opposite, and that in fact DCs can be set just as they are in 4e. But then (i) what is the point of keeping on reiterating bounded accuracy? And (ii) what is the objection to a DC-by-level chart to facilitate this?</p><p></p><p>EDIT:</p><p>OK, so if the only "gating" is via setting high DCs, then we have the fact that a 15th level fighter succeeds against a DC 27 on a roll of 20 (+5 for stat, +2 for remarkable athlete). Suppose that the GM allows Athletics to apply (although to me the relevant stat seems to be CON rather than STR) then the roll required is 17+. I don't characterise that as "feasible". As opposed to <em>very likely to fail</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7520695, member: 42582"] Couldn't a 1st level PC roll with +2 for proficiency, +4 for Guidance, +4 for 18 stat? Which would be a 1 in 80 chance to hit DC 30. My question is fairly simple - what is there (given bounded accuracy) that is feasible for a 15th level fighter but impossible for a 1st level fighter. DC 25 or 30 doesn't fit that description: a 15th level fighter has +4 or +5 to CON, and even with +2 from Remarkable Athlete has almost no chance of succeeding at that attempt. (Literally no chance against DC 30 without further buffing, and even then the chance is very small.) As I posted upthread, DC Heroes tries to deal with this issue via unbounded accuracy, that is, allowing very significant variation in both numbers on the PC sheet, and system-supported DCs. 4e tackles it completely differently, by looking first to the fiction to establish feasibility, and then having a chart to read off the DC given the level. MHRP and HeroQuest revised are both fundamentally the same in this respect. (Although obviously different in the technical devices they use to achieve this result.) This is a red herring. I've already posted upthread that it's easy to change the fiction of 4e while preserving the mechanical framework, and WotC published two examples: the Neverwinter Campaign Setting compresses the fiction of Heroic and Paragon into the mechanical framework of Heroic (mostly by offering versions of beholders, mind flayers and the like statted at heroic tier); while Dark Sun extends the fiction of Heroic and Paragon tier over the three tiers of paly (by statting up the sorcerer kings, who in default 4e terms would be Paragon tier opponents, as epic). The best description ever offered on these boards of the relationship between bonuses and fiction in 4e is the following: [indent][/indent] The contrast I am drawing between 4e and 5e is fairly straightforward: in 4e the [I]feasibility[/I] of an action can be settled upon [i]independently[/I] of mechanical minutiae - by reference to the ideas expressed in the tiers of play, to the prior established colour, to the flavour of the paragon paths at use in the game, etc. [I]Once that has been done[/I], the system has a simple way for setting a DC which will mechanically satisfy the desiderata for feasibility, namely, the DC-by-level-chart; and also a framework for integrating individual checks into the resolution of a scene, namely, skill challenges. 5e doesn't have a skill challenge system, and at least as bounded accuracy is presented appears to set a DC that is [I]prior to[/I] the question of feasibility, and [I]settles[/I] the question of feasibility rather than being an [I]afterthought[/I] to the question of feasibility. Some posts in this thread seem to say the opposite, and that in fact DCs can be set just as they are in 4e. But then (i) what is the point of keeping on reiterating bounded accuracy? And (ii) what is the objection to a DC-by-level chart to facilitate this? EDIT: OK, so if the only "gating" is via setting high DCs, then we have the fact that a 15th level fighter succeeds against a DC 27 on a roll of 20 (+5 for stat, +2 for remarkable athlete). Suppose that the GM allows Athletics to apply (although to me the relevant stat seems to be CON rather than STR) then the roll required is 17+. I don't characterise that as "feasible". As opposed to [I]very likely to fail[/I]. [/QUOTE]
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