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<blockquote data-quote="rmcoen" data-source="post: 7521956" data-attributes="member: 6692404">I remember the point I wanted to make, and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] brought it up.&nbsp; In the game mechanics, the fighter swings 4 times, gets two hits, does 30 damage.&nbsp; He does this six &quot;rounds&quot; in a row, defeating the ogre champion at last.&nbsp; He has been hit by the ogre in return 6 times, suffering a a good 80 damage as well.&nbsp; In the fiction, the fighter dodges and barely deflects powerful man-crushing blows from the Ogre, earning many bruises, perhaps a dislocated shoulder, not to mention general exhaustion from running about in heavy armor like a circus acrobat.&nbsp; Finally the ogre overbalances after a particularly well-parried overhand swing; the fighter dashes in under the club, guts the monster as he rushes past, then whirls and shoves his sword two-handed into the ogre's exposed side!&nbsp;&nbsp; The game had the fighter making 24 attacks, landing 12, while suffering enough damage to kill a dozen to a score of peasants; the fiction had the fighter in a tough battle, always inches from the one-hit-one-kill crushing blow, and then landing a killing blow of his own.IMC last week, we had a simliar sitution of &quot;game vs. fiction&quot;, even in 4e.&nbsp; The aforementioned ranger has a Daily power named &quot;Finishing Blow&quot; (IIRC), which does &quot;5W&quot; damage (i.e. 5d10 for his longbow, then plus DEX and bonuses)... but it's &quot;Reliable&quot; = not lost if he misses.&nbsp; The player &quot;missed&quot; the Balor they were fighting 4 rounds in a row; the fifth round, he stopped trying that power, and used another (which actually &quot;checkmated&quot; the monster due to some amazing and situational synergy).&nbsp; In the storytelling, the ranger circled and dodged for a while, looking the the perfect opening... and never found it.&nbsp; He put the arrow away, unspent, and instead....Now, the other point I wanted to say addresses martial vs. magical, and the comment that the martial classes fail to do their actions a lot, and the D&amp;D mage never fails to say the gibberish and wave the hands and get exact one pinch of guano (not one and half) and eat the right spider... the spell always comes off.&nbsp; First - attacks of opportunity, anyone?&nbsp; Doing that complicated thing *invites* someone to take a free swing; the fighter doesn't (usually) invite a free swing just for attacking someone.&nbsp; Second - saving throws.&nbsp; Game vs. Fiction again -- perhaps, when the fighter survives the 64pt lightning bolt, he didn't do it because he has &quot;100 hit points&quot;, he does it because the mage screwed something up!&nbsp; The bolt misfired, or arced left instead of right, or grounded out into a corpse's metal armor, spraying the target with sparks and shrapnel instead of electrocuting him outright.&nbsp; Or maybe, the bolt didn't even launch [i.e. the &quot;supernatural protection&quot; part of the fighter's HP] because the mage was jostled, or his steel wool blew away, or the glass rod snapped..A few sessions ago, the cleric (also the party Face) nat-1'd a Diplomacy roll during a faceoff while infiltrating a drow city in disguise.&nbsp; He was trying, just as things were deteriorating into combat, to shift blame from the party to third group in the area.&nbsp; So I decided - for fiction reasons - that he actually executed his Diplomacy exactly and perfectly right.... except his hat of disguise was hanging from a crossbow bolt, pinned to the wall behind him (a &quot;missed by 1 point!&quot; result from the surprise round)....Last comment, more towards the earlier &quot;need rules for chinups&quot;.&nbsp; I'm not sure what system or edition I read this in; 4e attempts to force it into place.&nbsp; But basically, I assume that &quot;paragon&quot; characters succeed at &quot;heroic&quot; activities; epic characters succeed at paragon activities, and critically succeed at &quot;heroic&quot; activities; things outside your &quot;field&quot; drop you a category.&nbsp; So (assuming 30-level, like 4e), a 10th level fighter rolls Athletics - not to chin up, but to accomplish a Heroic amount or duration of chinups.&nbsp; In fact, depending on the goal, perhaps he rolls Endurance, since the &quot;success&quot; is automatic.&nbsp; A 20th level fighter doesn't need to roll; he impressively wins.&nbsp; the 20th level Wizard still rolls.&nbsp; The 30th level fighter doesn't just chinup for an hour, he does it in full plate, with the 10th level fighter on his back!&nbsp; The 30th level Wizard... makes the bar disappear, or summons a Balor to chinup for him, or just leaves because &quot;chinups are stupid&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rmcoen, post: 7521956, member: 6692404"] I remember the point I wanted to make, and [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] brought it up. In the [U]game mechanics[/U], the fighter swings 4 times, gets two hits, does 30 damage. He does this six "rounds" in a row, defeating the ogre champion at last. He has been hit by the ogre in return 6 times, suffering a a good 80 damage as well. In the [U]fiction[/U], the fighter dodges and barely deflects powerful man-crushing blows from the Ogre, earning many bruises, perhaps a dislocated shoulder, not to mention general exhaustion from running about in heavy armor like a circus acrobat. Finally the ogre overbalances after a particularly well-parried overhand swing; the fighter dashes in under the club, guts the monster as he rushes past, then whirls and shoves his sword two-handed into the ogre's exposed side! The game had the fighter making 24 attacks, landing 12, while suffering enough damage to kill a dozen to a score of peasants; the fiction had the fighter in a tough battle, always inches from the one-hit-one-kill crushing blow, and then landing a killing blow of his own. IMC last week, we had a simliar sitution of "game vs. fiction", even in 4e. The aforementioned ranger has a Daily power named "Finishing Blow" (IIRC), which does "5W" damage (i.e. 5d10 for his longbow, then plus DEX and bonuses)... but it's "Reliable" = not lost if he misses. The player "missed" the Balor they were fighting 4 rounds in a row; the fifth round, he stopped trying that power, and used another (which actually "checkmated" the monster due to some amazing and situational synergy). In the storytelling, the ranger circled and dodged for a while, looking the the perfect opening... and never found it. He put the arrow away, unspent, and instead.... Now, the other point I wanted to say addresses martial vs. magical, and the comment that the martial classes fail to do their actions a lot, and the D&D mage never fails to say the gibberish and wave the hands and get exact one pinch of guano (not one and half) and eat the right spider... the spell always comes off. First - attacks of opportunity, anyone? Doing that complicated thing *invites* someone to take a free swing; the fighter doesn't (usually) invite a free swing just for attacking someone. Second - saving throws. Game vs. Fiction again -- perhaps, when the fighter survives the 64pt [I]lightning bolt[/I], he didn't do it because he has "100 hit points", he does it [U]because the mage screwed something up[/U]! The bolt misfired, or arced left instead of right, or grounded out into a corpse's metal armor, spraying the target with sparks and shrapnel instead of electrocuting him outright. Or maybe, the bolt didn't even launch [i.e. the "supernatural protection" part of the fighter's HP] because the mage was jostled, or his steel wool blew away, or the glass rod snapped.. A few sessions ago, the cleric (also the party Face) nat-1'd a Diplomacy roll during a faceoff while infiltrating a drow city in disguise. He was trying, just as things were deteriorating into combat, to shift blame from the party to third group in the area. So I decided - for fiction reasons - that he actually executed his Diplomacy exactly and perfectly right.... except his [I]hat of disguise[/I] was hanging from a crossbow bolt, pinned to the wall behind him (a "missed by 1 point!" result from the surprise round).... Last comment, more towards the earlier "need rules for chinups". I'm not sure what system or edition I read this in; 4e attempts to force it into place. But basically, I assume that "paragon" characters succeed at "heroic" activities; epic characters succeed at paragon activities, and critically succeed at "heroic" activities; things outside your "field" drop you a category. So (assuming 30-level, like 4e), a 10th level fighter rolls Athletics - not to chin up, but to accomplish a Heroic amount or duration of chinups. In fact, depending on the goal, perhaps he rolls Endurance, since the "success" is automatic. A 20th level fighter doesn't need to roll; he impressively wins. the 20th level Wizard still rolls. The 30th level fighter doesn't just chinup for an hour, he does it in full plate, with the 10th level fighter on his back! The 30th level Wizard... makes the bar disappear, or summons a Balor to chinup for him, or just leaves because "chinups are stupid". [/QUOTE]

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