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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Garthanos" data-source="post: 7522833" data-attributes="member: 82504">I feel like 5e took away some tools which had a lot of potential. (skill challenges are one of those - since they are a DM facing element this affects lot fewer people than not having a Druid or Bard or Barbarian in the players handbook ...aka in my opinion a definite error in 4e - just as I feel not taking the Warlord tactician/strategist seriously for 5e was a mistake, Battlemaster isn't it even if it could be) Oh yeah I am still very much inspired by elements out of 1e and 2e ... generally not exactly how they were done but actual flavors as well as potentials that were never realized at most tables 4e did some of that gave us the defender and the cunning warrior. I think 5e did some too. One manner that magic has improved and could be improved more is if it many times were an enabler for things of the martial vein.If a caster can summon a bunch of automatically controlled flying critters its meh... but if he summons them and they have to be trained with a struggle featuring athletics it gives weight to the martial hero. (which yes can be accomplished by a more generalist character too but eh). This could be applied to the 4e ritual for summoning mounts, and maybe use more elaborate mechanics - maybe only the first time (like attunement) - you could make it cheaper, more heroic and more desirable in story that way. Basically magic could avoid obviating the need for the cool heroic martial dude if it enables (ie like the badass magic item that really requires a martial hero to use). We who are calling for balance are saying the system needs to be careful of obviating that need and generally I do not think this has been done broadly. WRT the Wrestling of Death. What if it was knowledge which enabled that wrestling with death ie I know an herb that can let you cure disease and even raise the recently dead  - but you have to be a physical bad ass to use it because of the constitution requirement and maybe it doesnt have to be athletics you use to challenge death with (a high con bard could then use his performance) or a con-man rogue use his deception or whatever  - it might take nothing but nature skill to know of it. Having arcana do almost everything in rituals was I think a mistake. But honestly that goes out the window when a caster can just do it with mid level spell. So yes this balancing is very dependent on the magic system. Heck I want magic with complications and such because it evoke the better fantasy fiction magic that is less about wanting balance than a message of feel of it being badass.</blockquote>

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