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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7526218" data-attributes="member: 22779">The bigger issue here, and the reason I think that posters like [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] and [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] come to such different conclusions when talking about 4e is that there are two very fundamentally different approaches to how to look at mechanics.The reason that, say (and I'm just using you as an example here, not intended at all as any sort of attack on you) [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] comes to such different conclusions about Page 42 is that he is looking at the rules as discrete elements in the game.&nbsp; Which is fine when talking about 3e and AD&amp;D.&nbsp; The rules were meant as discrete elements.&nbsp; Healing was largely divorced from anything else - you either healed naturally in down time or you healed magically.&nbsp; 3e had some in combat healing, true, but, again, that was 100% magical.&nbsp; Healing is a discrete element.But, 4e doesn't work that way.&nbsp; 4e is very much holistic.&nbsp; You can't just look at Page 42 and come to conclusions.&nbsp; You also have to look at the entire game and then come to conclusions, which is why posters like [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and others have such different reactions.&nbsp; They don't see Page 42 as a discrete element, divorced from everything else.&nbsp; You also have to include the advice in the DMG like &quot;Get to the action&quot; and the tiers of play and the implications of those tiers.&nbsp; You don't have super doors in burned out shacks in Epic level play because, if you're following the advice in the game, you will never go into a burned out shack in epic level play.&nbsp; Why would you?&nbsp; Epic level play you should be dealing with gods and major demons and stuff, not wandering around The Keep on the Borderland.&nbsp; These issues just don't come up, if you follow the game holistically.This is why everyone keeps talking past each other.&nbsp; You're fundamentally not speaking the same language.&nbsp; Sure, [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] is 100% right about Page 42 not making a lot of sense.&nbsp; That's 100% true if you view Page 42 as a discrete element divorced from the rest of the game.&nbsp; Same way as (I forget who made the excellent point) is 100% right in saying that character level both is and is not a determining factor in calculating DC.&nbsp; But, that's only true if you take the game as a whole, and not as discrete elements.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7526218, member: 22779"] The bigger issue here, and the reason I think that posters like [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION] and [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] come to such different conclusions when talking about 4e is that there are two very fundamentally different approaches to how to look at mechanics. The reason that, say (and I'm just using you as an example here, not intended at all as any sort of attack on you) [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] comes to such different conclusions about Page 42 is that he is looking at the rules as discrete elements in the game. Which is fine when talking about 3e and AD&D. The rules were meant as discrete elements. Healing was largely divorced from anything else - you either healed naturally in down time or you healed magically. 3e had some in combat healing, true, but, again, that was 100% magical. Healing is a discrete element. But, 4e doesn't work that way. 4e is very much holistic. You can't just look at Page 42 and come to conclusions. You also have to look at the entire game and then come to conclusions, which is why posters like [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] and others have such different reactions. They don't see Page 42 as a discrete element, divorced from everything else. You also have to include the advice in the DMG like "Get to the action" and the tiers of play and the implications of those tiers. You don't have super doors in burned out shacks in Epic level play because, if you're following the advice in the game, you will never go into a burned out shack in epic level play. Why would you? Epic level play you should be dealing with gods and major demons and stuff, not wandering around The Keep on the Borderland. These issues just don't come up, if you follow the game holistically. This is why everyone keeps talking past each other. You're fundamentally not speaking the same language. Sure, [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] is 100% right about Page 42 not making a lot of sense. That's 100% true if you view Page 42 as a discrete element divorced from the rest of the game. Same way as (I forget who made the excellent point) is 100% right in saying that character level both is and is not a determining factor in calculating DC. But, that's only true if you take the game as a whole, and not as discrete elements. [/QUOTE]

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