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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Staffan" data-source="post: 9789593" data-attributes="member: 907">I think PF2 overcompensated somewhat. The problem is the rapidly escalating numbers combined with the Incapacitation rules. Let's say you have a 5th level caster trying to do something against a 7th level creature. Your save DC is probably going to be something like 21 (level 5 + trained 2 + stat 4 +10), and the creature will have a good save of +18, medium of +15, and poor of +12. So the medium save gives the creature 5% chance of a critical failure (which will likely take it out of the combat), 20% chance of a normal failure (strong penalty, like losing a whole round), 50% chance of a success (mild inconvenience, like losing one of its three actions or having a penalty for a round), and 25% of a critical success (no effect). If you manage to hit its poor save, the normal failure becomes 35% and critical success 10%. These numbers seem fine on their own, because you're fighting something that's supposed to be a moderate encounter all by itself, or becomes a severe encounter if accompanied by a lieutenant that's 2 levels lower (so same level as the party) or two minions 4 levels lower (so 2 levels below the party).But! To this, you add the Incapacitation effect rule: Incapacitation effects (tagged as such, but covering most hard CC) when used on an opponent whose level is more than the source's level (either the user's level if it's a normal ability, or spell level x2 if it's a spell) automatically improve the result of the save by 1 step. So the normal save now becomes 5% of normal failure, 20% chance of normal success, and 75% chance of critical success. 75% chance of "no effect" is not my idea of a good time, which is why my go-to spell against strong opponents is slow which is about as good as it gets without getting the incapacitation tag (slowed 2 for 1 min/slowed 1 for 1 min/slowed 1 for 1 round/no effect).</blockquote>

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