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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9799253" data-attributes="member: 93670">Not quite accurate when we had fort/reflex/will+SR.   Firstly and most obvious is the fact that intelligence was not one of those saves even if there were probably feat/prc boons to use it for wis saves.  What you are describing is a symptom that is the result of 5e breaking an objectively better design for control and debuff spells.  Here's a quick buy probably not exhaustive list of relevant spells & their save[Spoiler]Sleep:sr will (& 4 hd limited)Glitterdust:will  & blinded(-2 ac & 50% miss chance)Web: reflex limits to 5foot step rather than speed 0Sleet storm: reflex half speed blocks vision both ways and checks to move without fallingSlow:SR will limits action economy drasticallyBlack tentacles: grappleFear:SR will panicked condition does lotsSolid fog move action limited to 5ft no 5ft steps -2 on attack rollsHold person/monster: sr will/creature typeBestow curse:sr will does lots stuffEtc[/Spoiler]It continues like that as control and debuff spells get more obscure and into higher levels where their impact is more and more niche.  Simply having a control spell targeting a monster's weak save doesn't mean that spell is relevant.  Yes there were a lot of save or suck/save or lose spells but theywere often SR:yes  weren't always applicable to a scenario and you couldn't always have available slots to prep a different spell targeting a different save for a given scenario even if you could find one that even existed .. Wiith 5e every part of the whole interlocking set of tools was broken and responsibility got thrown on them to just use legendary resistance to no sell save or lose spells that were now widely applicable and trivially able to target weak saves</blockquote>

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