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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 9807897" data-attributes="member: 326">Possibly. But in speaking to Gary 25 years ago he noted that at the time he was ousted he was planning a book that reworked all the 'big bads' so they all had d12's for Hit Dice and were notably a tougher challenge.So its clear that making them "do-able" for a Level 10 party is massively underselling them and simply does not make sense.If your argument is Elder Vampires should be greater than CR 15 then I might agree...although a properly done CR 15 should be on average more powerful than a Level 20 PC...even if, if WotC-land they are not.Personally I think the depiction of Vampires in 5e is awful. In 4E I think I had Ghoul (Vampire Spawn) as Level 3, Vampire Level 5, Vampire Courtesan Level 8, Vampire Lord Level 12 and Elder Vampire Level 17; maybe even that was underselling things a bit.Maybe, but what should it be stronger than?If Lich > Mummy Lord > Vampire Lord > Wraith Lord, then I'd probably peg Elder Vampire around the Mummy Lord strength (ie. CR 15-17). Now admittedly I'd also think one should be stronger than a Death Knight (CR 17)...maybe they would be a better fit for CR 13.I was specifically thinking of a Fire Giant L18 and Fire Titan L21 Elite (IIRC).Individually that is not threatening a Kingdom...a CL25 Storm Titan...maybe but by that point we are way outside the Paragon Tier.Dracula controls a small country in the same way any Monarch does. Individually he is not a threat to a Country without his forces.Therefore a CR 15 Dracula himself is not a threat to a Country just like a CR 15 Purple Worm is not a threat to a country.In 5e a better breakdown might be:CR 16 Threat to Village (as in easily wipe it out in one night)CR 20 Threat to TownCR 24 Threat to City/Small CountryC 28 Threat to CountryEven if we take the example of the CR 30 Tarrasque it does not individually threaten "The world" because the world has enough heroes that if they banded together would eliminate it easily. Its maybe a threat to challenge the best heroes in a given Country, but not the world.Agreed.Or a whole new type of threat...[ATTACH=full]423228[/ATTACH]</blockquote>

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