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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Minigiant" data-source="post: 9808465" data-attributes="member: 63508">Really there are 5* kind of bonuses in D&D for the d20: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Ability score modifier A</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Level base bonus L</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Class based bonus C</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Magic item based bonus M</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Situational and circumstantial bonuses  S</li> </ol>What 5e did was<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Replaced 5 with advantage and disadvantage.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Made 4 optional and a complete layer the entire system.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">3 is usually static at either a +2 for most people and stacked on your level bonus.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Equalized 1 & 2 somewhat: <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">your bonus from ability score goes -1 to +5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">you bonus from level (proficiency) goes +2 to +6. Which is +0 to +4 with the initial +2 class bonus removed.</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Attack rolls are a d20 plus a sum of those three bonuses versus some value between 10 and 20. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">d20+ A+C+ L vs 10-20</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Saving throws was usually a challenge between a d20 Plus your ability score modifier versus 8 + all three of those bonuses.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2014: d20 + A vs 8+ A+C+ L</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2024: d20 + A +C +L  vs 8+ A+C+ L</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">In skill checks were a challenge between whatever the three modifiers you had.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">So for attack rolls the attacker had a very good chance of hitting the DC and as they leveled their ability to hit the DC increased slightly. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">For saving throws the attack I had a very reliable chance of success in 2014 and a social chance of success in 2024 which increase greatly with level because more likely than not only the attacker can put their level bonuses on the check. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The main difference is between attacks and spells word that spells more limited in use but their effects were a lot more impactful and offered something in return for failure. </li> </ol>Because spellcasters were often the only ones that are guaranteed to add their level bonus and often were the only ones who had a good ability bonus to the d20 test, it's severely warped the game. Perhaps the key is to either:1) Remove the level bonus from spell DC. Straight up 10 + Ability Modifier.  Or just Ability Score.2) Lower the impact of ability modifier. Cap it at +2 and require feats or magic items M to raise spell DC.Thoughts?*There's also a race/species bonus but it really doesn't matter and fold into the others because race and species bonuses to the d20 doesn't scale and usually are minor.</blockquote>

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