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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9808931" data-attributes="member: 42582">I've posted examples, which you seem to be ignoring.A high epic tier fighter can do 600 hp of the damage to the tarrasque in one round. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D. A high epic tier invoker can dominate a group of enemies once per encounter. That's not comparable to 5th level in any version of D&D.I already commented on the 19th level wizard spells, and explained why they are not the same as 3rd level spells in 5e. The differences become even more marked when regard is had to the other differences between 4e and 5e. A 3rd level fireball in 5e does an average of 28 hp of damage before saves. An Ogre has 59 hp. Even a 20th level wizard's fireball won't eliminate a group of ogres. In 4e D&D, when a 19th level wizard encounters Ogres, it's likely that at least some of them are minions. On a hit, any damage will defeat them. As will auto-damage. And a horde of Ogres, statted as a swarm, will take extra damage from an AoE attack.Here is a 9th level 5e AoE control spell, Weird:You try to create illusory terrors in others’ minds. Each creature of your choice in a 30-foot-radius Sphere centered on a point within range makes a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a target takes 10d10 Psychic damage and has the Frightened condition for the duration. On a successful save, a target takes half as much damage only. A Frightened target makes a Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns. On a failed save, it takes 5d10 Psychic damage. On a successful save, the spell ends on that target.In 4e terms, that is something like this:Area burst 5 in 20 Hit: 4d10 + INT psychic damage and ongoing 20 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). First failed save: ongoing 50 psychic damage and frightened (save ends both). Miss: Half damage.Frightened, in 4 terms, is something like Has -5 to attacks, skill checks and ability checks, and cannot move closer to the caster.That's not a bad control effect. But the only respect in which it's obviously better than Evard's Black Tentacles is that it does more damage. The fact that wizards in 4e are not big damage dealers is a design feature. The Sorcerer in my 4e game did not feel like an underperformer in the damage department, with an average of 60+ hp of damage at-will AoE attack at the top of epic.</blockquote>

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