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Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule
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<blockquote data-quote="WaterRabbit" data-source="post: 7514696" data-attributes="member: 2445"><p>Instead of accusing someone of bad math, maybe you should check your own work. But even with your mistakes, we come to the same conclusion, TWF is generally better. So if it is generally better why are people calling it a trap and why does it need to be modified?</p><p></p><p>----------------</p><p>My Assumptions:</p><p>1st Level Fighter: STR/DEX: 15 (Point Buy) +1 (Variant Human) = 16 (+3 dmg) Dual Wielder (1d8 damage Longsword/Rapier)</p><p>4th Level ASI STR/DEX goes to 18 (+4 dmg)</p><p>5th Level Extra Attack (2)</p><p>6th Level ASI STR/DEX goes to 20 (+5 dmg)</p><p>8th Level ASI takes a feat (Would be Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter for the archery comparison)</p><p>11th Level Extra Attack (3)</p><p></p><p>The damage for 11th level fighter would be: (1d8 +5) * 4 attacks = 9.5 * 4 = 38 points of damage without taking misses or crits into account (we agree here).</p><p>At a 65% chance to hit (your 17 column): (1d8+5) * 0.6 + (1d8+5) * 2 * .05 = 9.5 * 0.6 + 19 * 0.05 = 5.7 + 0.95 = 6.65 * 4 attacks = 26.6 aDPR. (here you are off by 1).</p><p></p><p>You don't seem to be taking into account the average damage of GWF [2d6 = average 7 without GWF, but 7.42 with GWF] (if anything GWF probably should be just getting a flat bonus to damage)</p><p></p><p>My analysis was done taking into account GWM, which should only add a row to your table not 5 columns.</p><p>(Also you should round to 2 decimals as the ones beyond are insignificant; I was about to rebuilt my table so I could find the sweet spot where Power Attack is worse than not taking it, I can also add action surge).</p><p></p><p>I agree action surge doesn't give 8 attacks (only 7), but as everyone else is only getting 6 attacks, it doesn't really help or hurt TWF. But this also affects the hand crossbow user which might make the heavy x-bow a better choice.</p><p></p><p>TL;DR: TWF still seems to do more damage / round than Duelist or Great Weapon Fighter. It is worse than Archery at high to hit numbers. So why does it need to be messed with?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WaterRabbit, post: 7514696, member: 2445"] Instead of accusing someone of bad math, maybe you should check your own work. But even with your mistakes, we come to the same conclusion, TWF is generally better. So if it is generally better why are people calling it a trap and why does it need to be modified? ---------------- My Assumptions: 1st Level Fighter: STR/DEX: 15 (Point Buy) +1 (Variant Human) = 16 (+3 dmg) Dual Wielder (1d8 damage Longsword/Rapier) 4th Level ASI STR/DEX goes to 18 (+4 dmg) 5th Level Extra Attack (2) 6th Level ASI STR/DEX goes to 20 (+5 dmg) 8th Level ASI takes a feat (Would be Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter for the archery comparison) 11th Level Extra Attack (3) The damage for 11th level fighter would be: (1d8 +5) * 4 attacks = 9.5 * 4 = 38 points of damage without taking misses or crits into account (we agree here). At a 65% chance to hit (your 17 column): (1d8+5) * 0.6 + (1d8+5) * 2 * .05 = 9.5 * 0.6 + 19 * 0.05 = 5.7 + 0.95 = 6.65 * 4 attacks = 26.6 aDPR. (here you are off by 1). You don't seem to be taking into account the average damage of GWF [2d6 = average 7 without GWF, but 7.42 with GWF] (if anything GWF probably should be just getting a flat bonus to damage) My analysis was done taking into account GWM, which should only add a row to your table not 5 columns. (Also you should round to 2 decimals as the ones beyond are insignificant; I was about to rebuilt my table so I could find the sweet spot where Power Attack is worse than not taking it, I can also add action surge). I agree action surge doesn't give 8 attacks (only 7), but as everyone else is only getting 6 attacks, it doesn't really help or hurt TWF. But this also affects the hand crossbow user which might make the heavy x-bow a better choice. TL;DR: TWF still seems to do more damage / round than Duelist or Great Weapon Fighter. It is worse than Archery at high to hit numbers. So why does it need to be messed with? [/QUOTE]
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Mike Mearls: so here’s the first part of my two-weapon fighting house rule
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