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<blockquote data-quote="Zaruthustran" data-source="post: 4287693" data-attributes="member: 1457"><a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227936&amp;page=1&amp;pp=15" target="_blank">Irongorn</a> can hit the AC range appropriate for his level on 2+ without needing anyone else, especially if you use the alt build that's on page 4 (swords and frost weapons). He doesn't have re-rolls, but it's still pretty effective. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />But I want to comment on your last sentence. I think 4E rewards party optimization even more than character optimization. Cooperating with your friends to defeat a common foe is what D&amp;D is all about, and 4E is the system that most encourages (mechanically) that sort of thing. To the OP, I simply don't understand the &quot;should min/maxing be allowed?&quot; question. Of course players should be &quot;allowed&quot; to make choices that increase their character's (and party's) chance for success. That's why those choices are in the game! I mean, In 4e, the major player rewards are feats and powers (as opposed to older editions, where the major reward was treasure/equipment). Rejecting character optimization in 4e is like playing draw poker and only playing with the hand you're dealt. Sure, technically you can play that way. But by rejecting optimization, you're not really getting the most out of the game's rule system.I'm going to run with that a bit, and use it to reject the subtext that optimization and &quot;roleplaying&quot; are on a sort of slider/that more optimization requires less roleplaying, or more roleplaying requires less optimization. That's simply not the case. In the poker example, if you play poker because you like getting together with friends, look at cards, and make bets, then you'll have a good time regardless of whether you optimize (throw out bad cards in an attempt to make a better hand) or not (play with what you're dealt). In the same way, if you sit down at the D&amp;D table to evoke a fascinating character it doesn't really matter if your character is optimized or not. After all, combat is only one component of D&amp;D.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zaruthustran, post: 4287693, member: 1457"] [URL=http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=227936&page=1&pp=15]Irongorn[/URL] can hit the AC range appropriate for his level on 2+ without needing anyone else, especially if you use the alt build that's on page 4 (swords and frost weapons). He doesn't have re-rolls, but it's still pretty effective. :) But I want to comment on your last sentence. I think 4E rewards party optimization even more than character optimization. Cooperating with your friends to defeat a common foe is what D&D is all about, and 4E is the system that most encourages (mechanically) that sort of thing. To the OP, I simply don't understand the "should min/maxing be [u]allowed[/u]?" question. Of [i]course[/i] players should be "allowed" to make choices that increase their character's (and party's) chance for success. That's why those choices are in the game! I mean, In 4e, the major player rewards are feats and powers (as opposed to older editions, where the major reward was treasure/equipment). Rejecting character optimization in 4e is like playing draw poker and only playing with the hand you're dealt. Sure, technically you can play that way. But by rejecting optimization, you're not really getting the most out of the game's rule system. I'm going to run with that a bit, and use it to reject the subtext that optimization and "roleplaying" are on a sort of slider/that more optimization requires less roleplaying, or more roleplaying requires less optimization. That's simply not the case. In the poker example, if you play poker because you like getting together with friends, look at cards, and make bets, then you'll have a good time regardless of whether you optimize (throw out bad cards in an attempt to make a better hand) or not (play with what you're dealt). In the same way, if you sit down at the D&D table to evoke a fascinating character it doesn't really matter if your character is optimized or not. After all, combat is only one component of D&D. [/QUOTE]

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