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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 4481975" data-attributes="member: 43019">Is that due to player choice in not taking the abilities I've mentioned or due to melee minions standing around outside of melee (ie, not actually fighting) just clogging up movement? Cause, I mean... you could also just use obstacles. Rocks, for instance. Though something like a doomspore might be more interesting.And just to verify - stand around not fighting but still get picked off by the warlock's two-fold curse killing... does that count as actions from your perspective? This statement implies that they are game pieces rather than beings with thoughts (or lack thereof). While this is true some of the time, very often they _are_ supposed to be somewhere other than where they inconvenience the party the most. I'd even wager the answer is "most of the time".This statement shows a glaring lack of understanding of damage in this game - or is pure hyperbole to support your argument (or both). Three minions can block a charge only if they are standing in all 3 eligible squares next to a creature or there is some other terrain. Also, if the PC can't move slightly to the side with its move then charge, opening up another 4 or so squares of movement. Regardless, four creatures on top of each other is a good recipe for dead minions. For example, Slashing Wake from the warlock or Winter's Wrath which will hit at least one non-minion and kill all the minions even if all the attacks miss.  Area effects that you'd use on targets other than minions that happen to kill minions aren't a notable amount of effort. Especially if they're area effects that you don't need to roll the attack roll on the minion to know it's dead. If you're targetting just minions with your area effects, that counts as some effort. Sure.Though, I'm not sure that a single standard action taken to kill, say, every minion in the battle is more than a _little_ effort even if it is an actual action using an encounter power.If you're using more minions than fit within the xp budget of the encounter, then you've already addressed the problem in your own way. Minions use up too much xp budget in "hordes", unless you define a horde as 4 to 8.Still totally agree that having minions is awesome in play. That doesn't mean the system isn't slightly flawed nor besmirch minions' place in that system. This doesn't change the fact that the same party can _easily_ skate by a, say, level + 4 fight with heavy minion usage while almost TPK to a level +4 fight with no minions. That is a flaw in the system.  Minions are still a lot of fun. It doesn't mean their design isn't partially flawed, particularly for groups other than your own. Which I guess is the equivalent of "Learn to game design", but I don't think that will ever catch on. Of course, I'd love if someone figured out a solution in this thread that was _perfect_. No extra tracking for minions, handles things easily, lets minions act at full XP value in those circumstances, etc.So discouraging that discussion is extremely unhelpful. You imply that it hasn't.</blockquote>

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