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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4214868" data-attributes="member: 1003">In the context of D&D I don't like the Minion rules, and I'm trying to work through why they bother me and why "fixing" them really isn't possible for my purposes.  I hope you'll bear with me, as this is about game design and starts with first principles.  DISCLAIMER: There's not supposed to be any badwrongfun here, just game theory.  The only intentional opinion in the post is clearly labeled as such below.*******First Principle: As you level up, you get better.  This is true in every game that recognizes character advancement (whether as class & level or a more skill-focused system).  How your advancement is recognized depends on the game.In 4E you get better at hurting enemies in two different ways AND you get better at avoiding death in two different ways.  Both your binary threshold effects (BAB and Defense) and your analog ablative effects (HP and dmg) go up with level.  BAB and HP go up according to a flat formula based on your class.  AC and Dmg going up is a bit differently; they're a mix of class advancement and assumptions about the equipment you acquire as you adventure.  But they all move up.  You get better at hitting AND hurting.  You get better at avoiding hits AND taking them.  It's a four-factor system (4FS).This 4FS applies to all classes, and the get better more or less in step.  The different roles make different trade-offs as to AC vs. dmg, HP vs. dmg, etc., but they're all supposed to be "balanced."  Playtesting often reveals slight imbalances in the system that require tweaking, but the basic assumption is not challenged.D&D's standard 4FS also applies to all non-Minion monsters.  There's a general in-step advancement in BAB, HP, Defense and Dmg.  Generally speaking, 15th level monsters are better than 3rd level monsters in all four factors.  Different monster types (Brute, Leader, etc) make different trade-offs (just like PC classes do), but there's an upward sloping trend.There's a different two-factor style of game though which may be described as "gritty."  (2FS-Gr)  Your BAB and Defense may go up, but you HP never do (or only goes up a very small amount).  The game can often come close to "All Save or Die, All the Time", but Dmg output can also be reigned in to make it more a "three strikes and you're out" type game.  Combat can be very "swingy", because only a few bad rolls in a row can kill you.  D&D 4E is never like this, and prior editions weren't once you get past 3rd level, but some people try to turn D&D into a game like this by using rule options like "Wound points" or "Critical hits do 1[W] Con damage."  I'm sure there will be way to do this in 4E if you wanted to.In a 2FS-Gr game combat looks like this:Initiative: miss - miss - miss - miss - dead.From a 4E normal monster or PC's point of view, that's really different from 4E RAW combat, where you can engage ablative defense (i.e., lose HP) every round for round after round, but between second winds and healing words you keep on going.  Unless of course, you're a Minion.  Minions don't have HP and it doesn't matter how much damage you do, only if you hit.Minions are 2FS-gritty monsters living in a 4FS-heroic game.  They ignore half the game's variables.  IMO, this is bad.  Choosing gritty or heroic fantasy are equally valid choices, but once you've made that choice I don't think mixing them together works.  It just doesn't feel right to me (clearly a subjective judgment, but there it is) and I don't think it will "work" in the long run because too many of the game's constituent parts depend on all four factors being there, and Minions break all those rules.  You basically need a "special case" rule for half the rules in the game that says "unless the target is a Minion, in which case X happens instead."  That adds a lot of complication and requires a lot of weird requirements for little gain.*********I do want to emphasize I mean no ill will to mearls et al because of this attempt.  We all know why we have Minions in 4E: good intentions.  The 4E devs wanted to allow a "horde of mooks" to be a thematic choice available to DMs and a reasonable challange for PC's (sounds nice, right?).  But the 4FS D&D uses has to advance all four factors more or less in step to avoid really wonky combat (either riskless mow-down, swingy die-toss or interminable miss-fest, depending on how the variables work out).  The only way out of this trap that allows for mook-hordes to actually pose a threat to PCs (with their level X binary threshold defense) is to remove HP and dmg from the equation for half the combatants.  It's a "fix", but it's ugly and is causing a lot of people on these boards some mental trauma - including me.So that's why I think I will not be using Minion rules.  Luckily for me they're not integral to the system, and I think they'll be easy to ignore.*********The astute reader will realize that there's a second 2FS out there, one where your ablative defense and offense (HP and [W]) scale with level according to a formula, but your binary threshold defense and offense (AC and BAB) never go up past 1st level.  In this system a 1st level opponent can "hit" a 20th level opponent as easily as a 1st level opponent, but he only does 1st level dmg vs his opponents 20th level HP.  The 20th level opponent's counter-attack will do 20[W] damage though, probably killing level-1 dude in one blow.  This system plays a lot like D&D as long as you're fighting opponents more or less your level, but anyone more than X levels beneath you is a Minion, and you're a Minion to anyone more than X levels above you.  I am open to suggests as to what to call this system.</blockquote>

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