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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 4867877" data-attributes="member: 11300">The style of game I play isn't suited to minions but heh, I'd like to think I understand them as well as everyone else here. In which case then, they should not hit as well or as hard as the "real thing", and defensively, they should be less adept. They should have less hp than the "real thing" but not 1hp. Not a contrivance from the DM that says "look, as long as you hit this guy, he's going down". This then has the further contrivance of needing a rule so that "misses" don't kill them. The gross simplification of reducing their hit points to 1 to encompass their inferiority just does not jive with how I like the mechanics to represent the creature, rather than presenting just a facade.Again, this aspect of 1st level heroes does not jive with my style of play. However, it is in the specific comparison of PC vs Monster and PC vs Minion that I was making. The gulf between the two bothers me. The subtlety of being able to gain levels is not a compensation for this in my opinion.I thought the thread was about describing what personally bugs each of us about minions? I agree that minions can still be a threat (much moreso than the mooks of previous editions). This threat represents a higher degree of skill that is contradicted by them being a 1hp cream-puff. To expand with an example perhaps might help explain a little better.Let's say you have 4 evil guards doing their best guarding "The" door. The low level fighter PC comes up to them and starts swinging. He can deal some damage but not enough to kill any of them in a single hit. And by then one of them has got to the bell and called for help. If he had of been able to do "hit = kill" (as with the minion rules), then he would have been successful.Let's now look at the high level fighter PC. With a big power attack and some nice great cleaving; he can wipe these 4 "minions" out in a round through agressive skill. He's earned the right to do this. For the low level guy, this is what he is aspires to - and will hopefully one day achieve.This is the question though, do you hide the fact that it was a minion or do you make it obvious. On one of the D&D podcasts with Mike and Dave, they had interesting arguments for both views. That's cool because I'm not really looking for someone to change my mind on this. Can you expand on this?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm not comprehending what you're saying here.I thought Jack99 mentioned this from an official adventure - that is the only reason why I was using it as a tragic example of minion-ness taken way too far.I never mentioned anything about elites and solos. However, they don't bother me as much - although mechanically speaking, I have some issues how damage, hps, and defenses are structured in D&D in general (all editions) - a factor emphasised by elites and solos in 4E . But on the whole no, I don't have as many hang-ups.You too. I really didn't want anyone to take my post the wrong way as an attack on 4E or something like that. I just don't like the minion rules in terms of how I like to play the game, how I like to view the fantasy world and the roles I like PCs to play in all of this.As for my own "fix", minions are a wart on the arse of 4E that as a DM, I'm more than happy to cut and staunch the blood. A lower number of hps and ability than the real thing is cool; I'm more than happy to adjust and track these during combat. I just treat them as how they are, rather than sending them out with only a single hp as an un-needed and un-warranted simplification - black boxes be damned I say.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

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