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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ninja-to" data-source="post: 4387313" data-attributes="member: 19551">Perhaps this can close the debate a little more.In addition to the points I made earlier, this quote from the Minions article on WotC seems to sum up everything I've come to understand since starting this thread."When you use minions, you should use those of a level appropriate to the encounter you’re building. The concept of minions is to provide fun filler for encounters, not to provide a way for a 1st level character to gain 1,000+ XP for defeating a 23rd-level abyssal ghoul minion by rolling a natural 20. Minions are a rules abstraction, and one of the many tools a DM has to build exciting encounters."I put bold on the points I think most people who quibble over minions and their 1HP don't seem to grasp.It would seem, contrary to many claims in posts earlier, that minions are *not* monsters in and of themselves. The article talks about "An 8th level encounter might involve battling ogres, but later in that campaign you might have an earth titan that has enslaved an ogre tribe, and thus create a 16th level encounter with an elite earth titan and a bunch of ogre bludgeoneer minions." It also seems to me that you need to take the same approach to a combat mechanic as you would to a creature. Not many people now have a problem with a 'shift' or a 5 foot step. It's just part of the game we've come to accept and understand as necessary to run things smoothly. The same open minded approach needs to be applied to minions. They're like your 'shift' maneuver. Their purpose is simply to make things run more smoothly.I'm quite glad I started this thread, as I've now got no doubt in my mind what a minion should be used for. Wrongly or rightly, I will also use common sense in situations where a minion might lost his single hit point, such as in terrain damage (perhaps in the future there *will* be terrain that damages without an attack roll) or insta damage from sillyness, like angry house cats. In those cases, the minion simply isn't hurt enough to drop it. Just have to keep in mind they're rules abstractions.They serve simple purposes.For the DM, they are a quick way to bookeep lots of creatures.They do not provide free xp. We've debated that to death and I think the free xp argument can be put to rest. Not only should such encounters not happen in the first place, but if they did, then the DM should put the 'real' creature back in place of the minion. Look up to the above excerpt where the ogres at 8th level are real ogres. There's no reason the reverse of the abstraction can't be true. In other words, you have your fist level characters in a room with 16th level minions. Reverse the abstraction and put in 8th level ogres (non-minions). The PC's should run if they don't want a TPK, which should be the case anyway.I'm fairly satisfied now with the addition to minions in 4th ed. What wasn't really explained carefully enough in the core books seems much clearer to me now. What really needs to be said is that minions need to be very carefully used by DM's, as they are an important tool. Misunderstood by DM's or players alike can lead to the strangeness people have been experiencing.So for now, my own interpretation is that Felix and Garfield might try to take on a 30th level minion, but even if they both rolled 20's, their damage wouldn't affect that particular minion. Only the PC's can take off that hit point. Wrong or right, for the time being that's how I'm houseruling it.Nuff said.</blockquote>

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