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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ARandomGod" data-source="post: 2433172" data-attributes="member: 17296">But I can say that there aren't numberous feats and non-optional rules (meaning assumptions in the rules-set) that required the mini's. Certainly mini's help conceptualization.They didn't have combat reflexes, where really you're only getting multiple attacks of opportunity when you can TELL you are.Hell, they didn't really have attacks of opportunity. They did have a free attack when you withdrew from combat, which was a kind of AoO, but nothing like 3.X (where withdrawing from combat is actually one way to AVOID getting an AoO). They didn't have a five foot step. It was not needed. Therefore they didn't have several feats (or rules/abilities) based around the concept of the five foot step. They do in 3.XAnd rules/feats/PrC's based around AoO's... not going to happen. Really nearly impossible to adjudicate (beyond some basics) without a map and mini's.I thought that 3.X game I played with the more narrative (and no maps/mini's) example I meantioned above detailed the differences very well. My character had combat reflexes (because I didn't know the game-style I was coming into). He'd never seen anyone take it. Noone took combat reflexes? Seriously? How could that be? That's an awesome feat. Well, it could be because the gamestyle didn't support it. Not only did I never get to use my additional AoO's during a mass melee combat, I never got a single AoO. I was in the middle of hundreds of guys running around... that seems implausible. Now, I'm sure if I'd meantioned it, he would have done something to incororate my 'ability'. It certainly wouldn't have been according to the rules as written however. They're written with an assumption that you'll see when you can take them.Of course, that narrative style also better supported the concept of being a few people in the middle of a mass melee chaos. I've only one other time (in a 3.X game, then with maps and mini's) ever HAD a mass combat, and it was ... well represented for what it could be with maps and mini's ... but much much less 'realistic' than the picture painted by the purely narrative style that I was in then. I know that as the game advanced from "Basic Dungeons and Dragons" it added more and more miniatures options. But the rules-set didn't actually assume them. 3.X does assume them in the core of how it's written. In the above meantioned narrative style, no maps/mini's game my character had a longbow and a longsword. When I 'attacked' I was never asked if I was using my bow or my sword. It didn't matter... they used the same damage dice. ...They used different to hit stats however...Some of that was my not being familiar with the gamestyle. They probably assumed I was using the appropriate modifier for the appropriate weapon. I assumed I was still using the weapon I initially had out (a bow) and would continue to do so until I meantioned I switched, which I would do when it was told to me that the bow was no longer feasible... and I certainly assumed I was making every effort to stay out of the general melee. (Part of why I didn't meantion combat reflexes!)I noticed that when the wizard attempted to cast a spell after combat began he had to make a concentration check. Why? (I thought)I didn't even begin to imagine that the wizard had entered combat. And if he had, wouldn't he just step away from melee to cast the spell?  The wizard didn't bat an eye however. He was a vetran in the group, and in a non map's and mini's game I couldn't tell if he was in melee or not, neither could he... and while I'd never heard him say that he entered melee, perhaps melee surrounded him unavoidably? I don't know...The game was extremely different (from what I was used to in 3.x). And I've seen 3.X maps and mini's game mass combat where the humans were treated as sort of a swarm (which would have made casting clearly require a concentration check). Mostly, for me, I have the maps and mini's out there. They're in a general marching order, on blank Tac-tiles. ...Until they enter a dungeon (or potentially active area). Then things get drawn out. Because without that when does the guy with combat reflexes get to use them? When do ANY AoO's take place? When does the wizard have to make a concentration check as opposed to a five foot step. When does ANYone have to make a five foot step, or use tumble?Really when can you cleave or great cleave (well, that one's easier to adjudicate). What about bull rushing and overrun? Easier than AoO's, but still more difficult without mini's. Spring attack? Whirlwind attack? Mobility? All of those really are built to assume a map with miniatures on it, you need to be able to really clearly see and point at the positions of people to have these feats work. And that's just from the PHB.</blockquote>

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