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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 4619166" data-attributes="member: 22779">Again, this doesn't answer my question.&nbsp; WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?&nbsp; Who is denying the existence of these solutions?&nbsp; When someone says, &quot;You cannot retrain in 3e&quot; you simply answer, &quot;Yes, you can, ref.&nbsp; PHB 2&quot;.&nbsp; Now, whether or not that's a good answer will depend on lots of factors.&nbsp; But, no one can deny that the issue has not been addressed.&nbsp; But, I rarely, if ever, see anyone denying the existence of these solutions.&nbsp; Far more often I see people (it even happened in this thread) denying the existence of the problem in the first place.&nbsp; But, you cannot deny the existence of the solution.&nbsp; For that, Imaro, you are 100% correct.&nbsp; I just think you've created a position to argue against that no one would reasonably take.&nbsp; Take an issue that I have with 3e - rogues being sidelined during combat by various creature types that are immune to sneak attack.&nbsp; ((Let's ignore the side argument that this isn't really an issue, but is in fact, all my own fault))&nbsp; This is a problem IMO in 3e.&nbsp; Now, there are solutions in official rule books to this problem.&nbsp; There are a number of spells scattered around various books that will allow the rogue to sneak attack.&nbsp; I believe there are a few feats that will as well.&nbsp; IIRC there is a variant class feature in PHB 2 that allows rogues to have some effect against unsneakable creatures.That doesn't change the fact that in 4e, this problem doesn't exist in the first place.&nbsp; In 4e, you can sneak anything.&nbsp; So, is it not fair to say that 4e solves a problem of 3e?&nbsp; The existence of 3e solutions to a problem does not change anything.&nbsp; Yes, there may be other solutions to the problem.&nbsp; But, for some people, they have the perception that 4e solves these problems better.&nbsp; I'm still somewhat surprised that anyone would honestly argue that these solutions do not exist in 3e though given the huge number of books for 3e.Thanks for this Hobo.&nbsp; That places this conversation in a bit more context.&nbsp; Like I said, I would agree 100% with Imaro that many of the issues in 3e had 3e solutions somewhere in the books.&nbsp; And, I would also agree that many of these solutions are quite elegant.&nbsp; I would certainly disagree with anyone who tried to claim that these solutions did not exist at all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 4619166, member: 22779"] Again, this doesn't answer my question. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? Who is denying the existence of these solutions? When someone says, "You cannot retrain in 3e" you simply answer, "Yes, you can, ref. PHB 2". Now, whether or not that's a good answer will depend on lots of factors. But, no one can deny that the issue has not been addressed. But, I rarely, if ever, see anyone denying the existence of these solutions. Far more often I see people (it even happened in this thread) denying the existence of the problem in the first place. But, you cannot deny the existence of the solution. For that, Imaro, you are 100% correct. I just think you've created a position to argue against that no one would reasonably take. Take an issue that I have with 3e - rogues being sidelined during combat by various creature types that are immune to sneak attack. ((Let's ignore the side argument that this isn't really an issue, but is in fact, all my own fault)) This is a problem IMO in 3e. Now, there are solutions in official rule books to this problem. There are a number of spells scattered around various books that will allow the rogue to sneak attack. I believe there are a few feats that will as well. IIRC there is a variant class feature in PHB 2 that allows rogues to have some effect against unsneakable creatures. That doesn't change the fact that in 4e, this problem doesn't exist in the first place. In 4e, you can sneak anything. So, is it not fair to say that 4e solves a problem of 3e? The existence of 3e solutions to a problem does not change anything. Yes, there may be other solutions to the problem. But, for some people, they have the perception that 4e solves these problems better. I'm still somewhat surprised that anyone would honestly argue that these solutions do not exist in 3e though given the huge number of books for 3e. Thanks for this Hobo. That places this conversation in a bit more context. Like I said, I would agree 100% with Imaro that many of the issues in 3e had 3e solutions somewhere in the books. And, I would also agree that many of these solutions are quite elegant. I would certainly disagree with anyone who tried to claim that these solutions did not exist at all. [/QUOTE]

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