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<blockquote data-quote="ProfessorCirno" data-source="post: 4619920" data-attributes="member: 65637">&quot;Retraining feats&quot; is hardly a totally new mechanic though.&nbsp; Same with having a series of skill DCs to meet.&nbsp; The different magic systems are the closest, but even those still operate strongly on the bare bones of the system itself - Incarnum and ToB both only alter one very, very small part of the system.&nbsp; I think it's safe to say that 4e has a lot more changes then &quot;the first book has retraining feats instead of the, like, fifth.&quot;Ahh, but there you're putting house rules and optional/variant rules in the same catagory.&nbsp; They aren't.&nbsp; House rules are for when the publishers and developers either don't see the problem or haven't made a solution.&nbsp; Optional and varient rules are by the developers, and that's a very important thing to note.&nbsp; It means they DID see the problem, but obviously couldn't go back in time to prevent it from happening.&nbsp; So they make the new rule.Again, the core argument here seems to be &quot;It doesn't count if it's not in the first three books.&quot;&nbsp; And I'm sorry, but that's a really lame argument, because...well, yes.&nbsp; Yes, it still counts, because it's still the developers who see - and fix - the problem.&nbsp; Yes, it's in a later book, but again, until we master time travel, that's going to have to do.&nbsp; For many players, it's a problem that 4e doesn't have druids.&nbsp; For Exalted players, it might've been a problem early on that they couldn't play Lunar Exalts.&nbsp; Yet I think it's incredibly stupid to blast Exalted for the inability to play Lunar Exalts, and I think most if not all Exalted fans would call me a moron if I did - and rightfully so.&nbsp; Likewise, once the druid class for 4e comes out, it would be immensely stupid to say &quot;4e doesn't have druids, those were just added in a LATER book!&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ProfessorCirno, post: 4619920, member: 65637"] "Retraining feats" is hardly a totally new mechanic though. Same with having a series of skill DCs to meet. The different magic systems are the closest, but even those still operate strongly on the bare bones of the system itself - Incarnum and ToB both only alter one very, very small part of the system. I think it's safe to say that 4e has a lot more changes then "the first book has retraining feats instead of the, like, fifth." Ahh, but there you're putting house rules and optional/variant rules in the same catagory. They aren't. House rules are for when the publishers and developers either don't see the problem or haven't made a solution. Optional and varient rules [I]are by the developers[/I], and that's a very important thing to note. It means they DID see the problem, but obviously couldn't [B]go back in time[/B] to prevent it from happening. So they make the new rule. Again, the core argument here seems to be "It doesn't count if it's not in the first three books." And I'm sorry, but that's a really lame argument, because...well, yes. Yes, it still counts, because it's still the developers who see - [B]and fix[/B] - the problem. Yes, it's in a later book, but again, until we master [B]time travel[/B], that's going to have to do. For many players, it's a problem that 4e doesn't have druids. For Exalted players, it might've been a problem early on that they couldn't play Lunar Exalts. Yet I think it's incredibly stupid to blast Exalted for the inability to play Lunar Exalts, and I think most if not all Exalted fans would call me a moron if I did - and rightfully so. Likewise, once the druid class for 4e comes out, it would be immensely stupid to say "4e doesn't have druids, those were just added in a [B]LATER[/B] book!" [/QUOTE]

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