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Mislead spell and illusion disbelieve
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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 6845698" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>The spell does exactly what it says and nothing more. We don't add rules that are not there. (Of course, a DM can do whatever we want - but we're discussing our best implementation of RAW here, with reasonable interpretation where rules are not specific).</p><p></p><p>There are few rules on what an illusion is (see PHB 203 for what there is), but they make it clear there are two types: Ones that make fake sensory inputs to all that view (fake visions, smells, sounds, etc...) (which I'll call illusions) and ones that go directly into the mind and create a falsehood within the brain of one enemy (which I call phantasms). This spell seems clearly to be the former. </p><p></p><p>For illusions, it is generally considered, although not explicitly spelled out in 5E, that they create visions, sounds, smells, and emanated touch sensory impressions (such as emanated heat or a chilling aura), but that they do not have any mechanical impact on observers. They will not obstruct, damage, duplicate a special ability (such as a Medusa's gaze), etc... There are specified exceptions to this rule, such as found in minor image, but this is the general rule most DMs use... which boils down to 'it seems real until you interact with it' (unless the spell specifies otherwise). There is likely to be some disagreement between DMs, but I would rule that tremorsense does not get fooled by illusions (as the ground can't really be vibrated by the illusion), but blindsight is fooled by these sensory illusions (truesight is called out as seeing through it, but not blindsight).</p><p></p><p>This is the joy and challenge of illusions - figuring out fun ways to use them often require some interesting rulings by the DM.</p><p></p><p>They're not relevant to mislead, but for completeness sake: phantasms can convince people of far more, but the rules generally spell that out. Phantasmal Killer and Phantasmal Force do a good job there.</p><p></p><p>There is no check available to see through Mislead. If an enemy tries to use an action to determine whether it is an illusion, there is no mechanic to do so. As such, the enemy won't see it as a faint outline if they make a check. Instead, there will be no effect if they try to investigate and 'see through the illusion'. The result of such an attempt will always be inconclusive as to whether it is an illusion.</p><p></p><p>... but <u>you don't need a check to believe it to be an illusion</u>. There is no illusion where you must have a check to conclude you're dealing with an illusion. Generally, checks provide confirmation, not suspicion.</p><p></p><p>Players can draw that conclusion for their characters (and DMs for NPCs) based upon other criteria. For example, if an arrow passes right through it, the enemy might conclude it is an illusion.</p><p></p><p>However, they're making an assumption when they do so. There is no mechanic from the spell that will confirm their suspicion (although Truesight, etc... could). For all they know, when they see an arrow pass through the spellcaster, there could be a spell in effect that allows arrows to pass through a physical form. And believing it to be an illusion does not change what their senses are telling them. They can't see past the illusion, for example. A clever spellcaster might put their mislead self directly in front of the words that an enemy wants to read and obstruct that view for as long as the illusion is present.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 6845698, member: 2629"] The spell does exactly what it says and nothing more. We don't add rules that are not there. (Of course, a DM can do whatever we want - but we're discussing our best implementation of RAW here, with reasonable interpretation where rules are not specific). There are few rules on what an illusion is (see PHB 203 for what there is), but they make it clear there are two types: Ones that make fake sensory inputs to all that view (fake visions, smells, sounds, etc...) (which I'll call illusions) and ones that go directly into the mind and create a falsehood within the brain of one enemy (which I call phantasms). This spell seems clearly to be the former. For illusions, it is generally considered, although not explicitly spelled out in 5E, that they create visions, sounds, smells, and emanated touch sensory impressions (such as emanated heat or a chilling aura), but that they do not have any mechanical impact on observers. They will not obstruct, damage, duplicate a special ability (such as a Medusa's gaze), etc... There are specified exceptions to this rule, such as found in minor image, but this is the general rule most DMs use... which boils down to 'it seems real until you interact with it' (unless the spell specifies otherwise). There is likely to be some disagreement between DMs, but I would rule that tremorsense does not get fooled by illusions (as the ground can't really be vibrated by the illusion), but blindsight is fooled by these sensory illusions (truesight is called out as seeing through it, but not blindsight). This is the joy and challenge of illusions - figuring out fun ways to use them often require some interesting rulings by the DM. They're not relevant to mislead, but for completeness sake: phantasms can convince people of far more, but the rules generally spell that out. Phantasmal Killer and Phantasmal Force do a good job there. There is no check available to see through Mislead. If an enemy tries to use an action to determine whether it is an illusion, there is no mechanic to do so. As such, the enemy won't see it as a faint outline if they make a check. Instead, there will be no effect if they try to investigate and 'see through the illusion'. The result of such an attempt will always be inconclusive as to whether it is an illusion. ... but [U]you don't need a check to believe it to be an illusion[/U]. There is no illusion where you must have a check to conclude you're dealing with an illusion. Generally, checks provide confirmation, not suspicion. Players can draw that conclusion for their characters (and DMs for NPCs) based upon other criteria. For example, if an arrow passes right through it, the enemy might conclude it is an illusion. However, they're making an assumption when they do so. There is no mechanic from the spell that will confirm their suspicion (although Truesight, etc... could). For all they know, when they see an arrow pass through the spellcaster, there could be a spell in effect that allows arrows to pass through a physical form. And believing it to be an illusion does not change what their senses are telling them. They can't see past the illusion, for example. A clever spellcaster might put their mislead self directly in front of the words that an enemy wants to read and obstruct that view for as long as the illusion is present. [/QUOTE]
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