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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 7484603" data-attributes="member: 23751"><p>This is not correct. I am not arguing that the rules are vague because the DMs can make rulings on them. Many of the rules are vague, because they are vague. Others are not vague. Whether vague or clear, though, they are all secondary to any and all DM rulings, as the DMG makes clear on page 4.</p><p></p><p>Let's just look at Athletics.</p><p></p><p>1. "Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:" So apparently, you can use athletics to climb, jump, or swim, but not lift things, pull things, push things, run faster, etc. You have by RAW, only those three actions. That doesn't make any sense. The rule is either vague on what it can do, or deliberately short sighted so as to force the DM to engage in many rulings over the course of a campaign as to what athletics can do.</p><p></p><p>2. "You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off." What if something isn't trying to knock you off but hits you while you cling to a surface. A falling boulder seems like it should be able to knock you off. Another rule that is either vague in how it's written, or written so as to require rulings. It would have been simple to reword that last one to say, "or cling to a surface to avoid having something knock you off." My wording even saves them 2 characters of space.</p><p></p><p>3. "You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump." I present to you this entire thread <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>4. "You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming." What if you are weighed down by armor, treasure, or something else that isn't a creature? How about if something falls on you? What if a trap designed to pull you under gets a hold of you due to a failed save? Yet again, we have common occurrences not covered by the rule, making it vague or written to require lots of rulings.</p><p></p><p>And this is just Athletics!!! The entire books is like this, where the rule is written to explicitly cover only a few areas, but which would actually cover many more common things. The entire edition is written to require DMs to make rulings left and right. Vagueness, contradiction, and/or short sightedness is rampant throughout.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 7484603, member: 23751"] This is not correct. I am not arguing that the rules are vague because the DMs can make rulings on them. Many of the rules are vague, because they are vague. Others are not vague. Whether vague or clear, though, they are all secondary to any and all DM rulings, as the DMG makes clear on page 4. Let's just look at Athletics. 1. "Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:" So apparently, you can use athletics to climb, jump, or swim, but not lift things, pull things, push things, run faster, etc. You have by RAW, only those three actions. That doesn't make any sense. The rule is either vague on what it can do, or deliberately short sighted so as to force the DM to engage in many rulings over the course of a campaign as to what athletics can do. 2. "You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off." What if something isn't trying to knock you off but hits you while you cling to a surface. A falling boulder seems like it should be able to knock you off. Another rule that is either vague in how it's written, or written so as to require rulings. It would have been simple to reword that last one to say, "or cling to a surface to avoid having something knock you off." My wording even saves them 2 characters of space. 3. "You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump." I present to you this entire thread ;) 4. "You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming." What if you are weighed down by armor, treasure, or something else that isn't a creature? How about if something falls on you? What if a trap designed to pull you under gets a hold of you due to a failed save? Yet again, we have common occurrences not covered by the rule, making it vague or written to require lots of rulings. And this is just Athletics!!! The entire books is like this, where the rule is written to explicitly cover only a few areas, but which would actually cover many more common things. The entire edition is written to require DMs to make rulings left and right. Vagueness, contradiction, and/or short sightedness is rampant throughout. [/QUOTE]
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