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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Croaker" data-source="post: 788008" data-attributes="member: 2964">According to the PHB, creatures can voluntarily forgo a saving throw.  What happens if the creature is tricked or coerced into giving up a save?  Do they somehow realize that an effect is not desirable and instinctively resist it?  Or do they have to suck it up?  In most games I have run and played, there is never any question that PCs will attempt to resist beneficial spells cast by their allies.  Some examples may clarify what I am getting at:Example 1:  Tricky Tim, evil cleric of Nerull (Trickery and Death domains) has managed to bushwhack the party's cleric in the middle of a fight, and has used Change Self to take on said cleric's appearance.  When Tricky Tim walks up to the wounded party fighter and offers to cast a Cure Critical Wounds on him, then casts an Inflict Critical Wounds instead, would the fighter get a saving throw?  Would Tricky Tim have to make a touch attack?  If he used his Death Touch ability instead, would he have to make a touch attack?  The fighter would, of course,  have the chance to see through Tim's disguise (unlikely, since fighters don't get Spot as a class skill, and Tricky Tim's Change Self offsets the fighter's +10 bonus for knowing the subject intimately.)  Should Tim also have to make a Bluff check to cover up the differences between the two spells' verbal components (assuming that the fighter even has a chance to notice the diference between two spells when he has no ranks in Spellcraft)?Example 2:  Sneaky Pete, pickpocket extraordinaire, has been hired to filch the party wizard's potion of Spider Climb, and replace it with a dose of Id Moss (Fort DC 14, 1d4 Int/2d6 Int) cleverly disguised with a Nystul's Magic Aura.  Assuming that Sneaky Pete succeeds at both the lift and the plant undetected (quite likely, since wizards also don't get Spot as a class skill) what happens when the wizard decides to drink the potion?  Since he would naturally want to forgo the saving throw against Spider Climb, does he automatically fail the save against the poison?  Does it matter that the poison call for a Fort save while Spider Climb allows a Will save?  Would the wizard have a chance to notice some difference in taste?  Would forgoing the first save have any effect on whether the wizard would have to forgo the second save?Example 3:  Mindbender Mike has successfully cast Charm Monster on a troll, and knows that the duration of the spell is going to expire tomorrow.  Would the troll allow him to cast another spell on him without making a save?  What if Mindbender Mike told the troll that the spell was Bull's Strength?  Is a Charm effect strong enough to allow someone to keep recasting the spell without a saving throw after the first?Any thoughts or feedback on these examples would be greatly appreciated.</blockquote>

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