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<blockquote data-quote="Croaker" data-source="post: 791158" data-attributes="member: 2964">Thanks for all the responses.&nbsp; As to the holy symbol issue, I would imagine that the Change Self would cover it with an appropriate image.&nbsp; Spellcraft can't be used untrained, however, so I would resist giving a fighter a chance to recognize a harmful spell that way--trying this trick on a wizard would be a different matter, of course.&nbsp; It seems that the majority are going along with my first gut reactions:&nbsp; case 1 would mean the fighter sucks it up unless he beats Tricky Tim's Disguise and Bluff-the nasty thing about this setup is that it can occur at such a low level--a 3rd level cleric with Trickery domain can get off a Hold Person to immobilize, Obscuring Mist to cover the switch, and Change Self to take over the hero's identity, and still have a 2nd level slot left for Inflict Moderate or another Hold Person; at 3rd level, Tricky Tim could easily have +20 or more to his Disguise check (5 ranks, +2 synergy with Bluff, +10 for Change Self, plus Charisma modifier) and at least 5 ranks in Bluff.&nbsp; As to issues of metagame knowledge, I admit it would be tricky to deal with, but a number of creatures and spells deal with bad guys taking the place of good guys, so each group just has to come up with something that works for themselves.case 2 would probably allow a save--I justify it as &quot;I forgo my Will save,&quot; as Elder Basilisk mentioned.&nbsp; However, in Magic of Faerun, drugs are treated as poisons, and the consumer generally forgoes their saving throw while using them.case 3 would probably come down to a Charisma check, depending on what the background of the relationship was.&nbsp; What if Mindbender Mike had offered to cast Resist Elements:&nbsp; Fire on the troll?&nbsp; There would be no immediate visible or physical effect to give away the fact that it was a different spell, and it would be something that a troll would be very interested in.&nbsp; How about if Mike wanted to really cast Bull's Strength on the troll?&nbsp; Would it still demand a save?Thanks again for everyone's discussion!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Croaker, post: 791158, member: 2964"] Thanks for all the responses. As to the holy symbol issue, I would imagine that the Change Self would cover it with an appropriate image. Spellcraft can't be used untrained, however, so I would resist giving a fighter a chance to recognize a harmful spell that way--trying this trick on a wizard would be a different matter, of course. It seems that the majority are going along with my first gut reactions: case 1 would mean the fighter sucks it up unless he beats Tricky Tim's Disguise and Bluff-the nasty thing about this setup is that it can occur at such a low level--a 3rd level cleric with Trickery domain can get off a Hold Person to immobilize, Obscuring Mist to cover the switch, and Change Self to take over the hero's identity, and still have a 2nd level slot left for Inflict Moderate or another Hold Person; at 3rd level, Tricky Tim could easily have +20 or more to his Disguise check (5 ranks, +2 synergy with Bluff, +10 for Change Self, plus Charisma modifier) and at least 5 ranks in Bluff. As to issues of metagame knowledge, I admit it would be tricky to deal with, but a number of creatures and spells deal with bad guys taking the place of good guys, so each group just has to come up with something that works for themselves. case 2 would probably allow a save--I justify it as "I forgo my Will save," as Elder Basilisk mentioned. However, in Magic of Faerun, drugs are treated as poisons, and the consumer generally forgoes their saving throw while using them. case 3 would probably come down to a Charisma check, depending on what the background of the relationship was. What if Mindbender Mike had offered to cast Resist Elements: Fire on the troll? There would be no immediate visible or physical effect to give away the fact that it was a different spell, and it would be something that a troll would be very interested in. How about if Mike wanted to really cast Bull's Strength on the troll? Would it still demand a save? Thanks again for everyone's discussion! [/QUOTE]

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