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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Taralan" data-source="post: 4607512" data-attributes="member: 17504">Altough as we all know, most of the save or die effect have been removed, there are a few which survived the purge and made it as monsters abilities. In particular, some form of petrification can be seen in the basilisk, medusa and beholder I believe.However, in my opinion, these effects habe been poorly implemented, since they misuse the save mechanics. Looking at the medusa for example, we see that once the petrifying gaze attack succeed, the target is slowed (save ends) then if the save miss, the target is immobilized, and then, after yet another failed save, the target is petrified.Altough I like the progressive mechanic and the less binary nature of the gaze, this is a poor implemantation, as it does not uses the new save properly. the new save is not in any way a form of resistance, but simply another way to establish a powers duration. Indeed, since the save is the same for everyone (a flat 11/20 chance) it should not be used like this.Firstly, it makes little sense from a simulationist point of view since it means that a fearsome medusa as less than 25 % chance of petrifying even the lowest peasant (unless he stays near her for constant attack). Clearly not the representation of a fearsome mythological monster.Secondly, it creates problem with powers that affects saves. For example, the Paragon Path feature of the Dreadnought called Unfailing Ressources (in Martial Power) allows the fighter to always suceed on a save in exchange of 10 hit points. Now that is fine if the save mechanics is used (as it should) as a duration mechanics, but in reality, it means that our fighter is for all intent and purpose immune to petrification and other similarly implemanted save or die effects.Now the solution is however easy I believe and should follow the pattern of the Bodak death touch in the sens that the progressive effect of the power should follow several succefull attacks rather than failed saves. So for the medusa, on a first successful gaze attack you are slowed. If a second one succeed you are immobilized and after the third one you are petrified. Of course these "secondary attacks" could target a different defense (such as fortitude) with a different attack bonus if the designer of the monster so choosed to obtained the desired effect.This would solve both problems at once since our medusa attacking low level humans would almost always petrify them, while retaining the same aproximate 25% against an equal level PC (if the attacks are at a correct attack bonus). it would also avoid unintended side effects of the powers that modify saves. The only thing that could be troublesome is whether you should require the first effect to still be in force during the second attack for the effect to be improved or not... if you do, you get back problem #2 but if you dont you will need some form of tracking.What do you think ? How would you redesign these save or die effects ? I think this is important since I believe these effects really enhance the game and changes the dynamic of always having to gring through the Hit points. With a solid mechanic, these effects could also return as powers for the Wizards and other PC....</blockquote>

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