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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7005843" data-attributes="member: 29398">That's just my point - in a case like this the player flat-out shouldn't know their probability of success!The +5 Insight tells the player that compared to most people their character's odds are better than those of an average Joe; no problem there, and if that's the best Insight value in the party then that's probably the right character to try this.  But the player (in character) shouldn't know any more than that - they've never met this guard before; they don't know whether he's a brilliant liar or not (maybe his capacity for hiding the truth is why he got the job in the first place), or whether he's even lying at all...or if he is, whether he's lying about what the PC thinks he is or covering up something else entirely unrelated.  [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] is quite right in saying something like this in fact moves out of the realm of mechanics and into the realm of straight-up DM narration.  On the player's "I want to see if I can tell if he's lying" you-as-DM have to quickly decide (if you haven't pre-determined this already) how good a liar the guard is - assuming he's lying at all - and either narrate whatever result you like or, if dice are the arbiter, snap-assign a DC and roll against it behind the screen again followed by narration of whatever the dice steer you toward.  And in any case the player (in character) has no idea what they're up against, and nor should they.Even then, with or without use of dice you can simply narrate "Well, the guard looks nervous; he's unsure of himself and keeps glancing towards the guardhouse while talking to you."  Does that mean he's lying?  Does it just mean it's his first day on the job and he doesn't want to mess up?  Does it mean there's someone in the guardhouse ready to shoot him if he makes a wrong move?  Or that he's got a paramour hidden in there?  A narration like this opens the door for further investigation...maybe the party sneak goes and peeks in the guardhouse window to check it out, maybe Insight-guy calls the guard on his nervousness and asks what's wrong, and so forth.The player's best strategy is to assume nothing and carry on.Base what decision on...the decision that the guard is lying, or the decision even to check for such?Either way, the player (in character) can arbitrarily make those decisions at any time without resorting to any mechanics at all: "'You're lying!' says Terazon while gently grabbing the guard and pushing him up against the guardhouse wall.".  The character has simply decided the guard's lying (maybe or maybe not based on any evidence at all) and it's up to the guard to bail himself out...or call for help...or admit that yes, he's been ordered to say things that aren't true...Lan-"despite 3e's best attempts, mechanics are not the answer for everything"-efan</blockquote>

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