Modifying Spell burn.

[Charles Gray]

OK-- I love the system in Grim tales and am trying to adopt it to a more high magic setting. One idea was to convert spell burn to subdual damage, which makes the wizard less likely to keel over after a single blast.

It also means taht absolutely EVERY "wizard" will be taking nothing but tough levels. Now, while the LA Raiders spellcasting division is an amusing thought, it isn't thematically appropriate.
I would really, really like to avoid any simple "fiat" such as refusing to let tough heros to take sorcery, but I would like a mechanism that minimizes the difference.

Any thoughts?

 

[RangerWickett]

Easiest thing? Spell burn damage reduction equal to Intelligence/Wisdom/Charsima bonus.

More interesting rule? Make spell burn deal Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma damage.

 

[Old One]

My Thoughts...

I had a chance to run a GT Demo at the MD-VA-DC Game Day yesterday...

Only had 1 spell-casting player (Magical Adept: Divine, spell-casting stat +3, no additional spell-casting feats). If you wanted to use the GT system in a higher magic campaign, my observations are as follows:

• Allow for quicker spell-burn recovery. Right now, burned STR (if you are an adept) or burned CON (non-adept) is recovered at 1/day (2/day with complete rest). With a STR of 10-13 (average for many casters) and some bad spell burn die rolls, a caster can collapse pretty quickly. You could scale spell burn recovery to 1/hour, 1/10 minutes or even 1/minute depending on how high magic you are shooting for.
• STR-boosting magic items, scrolls and potions are your friend. Getting ready to go into battle? Quaff a potion of Bull's Strength. You could also allow strange and expensive extracts from magic creatures or plants to be imbibed to either soak a bit of spell burn or help you recover lost STR points quicker. Of course, in keeping with the GT flavor, long-term or excessive use could lead to addiction, madness or other unpleasant side-effects. If you institute things like this, I would make them both very rare and very expensive...so using them is always a trade-off.
• Time is your friend. With effective caster level increases by 1 for each time increment past the required casting time you take to cast the spell. This is invaluable, particularly if you don't have any talents to increase caster level.
• Action points are your friend. They are invaluable for boosting your spell success chance in a tight spot.
• The uncertainty of the system makes for great game tension! Players were literally on the edge of their seats waiting to see if key spells took effect.

In our scenario, the caster succeeded in casting about 60% of the spells attempted. He was only Caster Level 1 and most were attempted as standard actions. He had access to 2 0-level spells, 2-1st level spells, 1-2nd level spell and 1-6th level spell. I did have him roll spell burn for the 0-level spells, but he only took burn on a roll of 1 (essentially spell burn die of 1-3).

He saved the 6th level spell (wind walk) for the climactic battle, took 3 extra time increments, used an action point and succeeded with the exact number needed. The 6 spell burn dice knocked him from STR 14 to STR 2 - but the party got where they needed to go!

~ Old One

PS - It will be interesting to get Wulf's take on this when he gets back from his vacation.

 

[Zoatebix]

Great anecdote, Old One!

Hee hee - People's Republic of Maryland. You bring joy to my heart.

Anyways - the recovery time solution really seems like the best idea to me.

-George

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I played Brother Temerius, the divine caster in Old One's game. It was my first 'live' experience with Grim Tales, so I was anxious to see how spellcasting worked.

If you want to use the GT system in a high-magic setting, your player will have to take many, many levels in Smart/Dedicated/Charismatic. In order to be even moderately successful, they'll have to burn almost all their talent picks on 'Improved Caster Level', which is an Advanced Talent only available to those classes. To have a 50/50 chance of casting a 9th level spell, he'll have to have a Caster Level of 9 (1 base for Magical Adept, plus 8 from Increased Caster Level talents). 9th level spell = DC19 vs. d20+Caster Level.
You suffer spell burn even on failures, and with a d6 burn die, he'll still likely take a pont or two every time he casts a spell. (More, if he rolls like I did ) A 10th level GT caster with max caster level and an 18 INT who tries to cast the equivalent of a 10th level wizard's full repetoire in a day is apt to be down 7 or 8 points of Strength, and he'll not have actually succeeded in casting all those spells.

Furthermore, all spell effects that use 'caster level' as a variable will be halved over the equivalent D&D wizard, whose caster level = class level most of the time.

To succeed, a GT caster has to discipline himself to cast spells well below his maximum whenever possible, which is counter-intuitive to players used to D&D type magic.

One possible alternative would be to allow the caster to recover an amount of spell-burn damage equal to their casting stat bonus after a full nights rest. This would allow the cautious caster to function for an extended period without crippling himself, and would let him go all-out in an emergency without spending the next week having to be carried around on someone's back.

 

[drnuncheon]

I've been thinking about mixing in some of Midnight's spell energy for a level of casting ability somewhere between GT and standard D&D - the systems seem pretty similar already, and the ability to remove a few dice of burn could make a big difference when trying to access the higher level spells.

Another thing I'm thinking about is using Incantations from Urban Arcana rather than higher level spells. I'd have to figure out a DC modifier for spell burn, though.

J

 

[Charles Gray]

Another thing I'm thinking about is using Incantations from Urban Arcana rather than higher level spells. I'd have to figure out a DC modifier for spell burn, though.

J

I'm doing that to-- both as a game thing and a balance thing. I've always kinda disliked how in D20 the mages, especially once they get level 6+ spells, rise far beyond the fighter and non-spellcasting classes. Sometimes a clever fighter can match them, but usually, a clever fighter and a clever mage is like a little martial arts master and a big one-- the big one wins.
Keeping the truly nasty spells as incantations, gives you more balance, as well as permitting the old standby from Conan and other swords and sorcery games as the fighters break in to stop the ritual that is about to turn the planet into jello.