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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TwinBahamut" data-source="post: 4596580" data-attributes="member: 32536">Yes, Fighters and Rogues are both Martial. That doesn't change my point (actually, it is quite assumed in my point). Both are classes that "use weapons very well, and little else". Barbarians and Druids both work on the concept of "totems, spirits, and transformations". I'm not a DDI Subscriber, so I haven't seen the Bard.Things don't need to be exactly the same, but there is only so much room for variation. There is a unified core concept that is common to every class in a power source, even if the mechanical interpretation differs each time (within reason). For my understanding of Ki (and the way I hope it will be), having a class be built completely around an elemental system would be outside of the core concept, just as much as shooting fireballs is outside the realm of the Martial power source's core concept.The five elements of fire, water, earth, air, and heaven/sky/void is much older and more fundamental than Musashi's Book of Five Rings. It is a Buddhist/Indian concept originally, and it is something of a pet peeve of mine that everyone seems to think that Musashi's writing was the end-all be-all of Japanese beliefs and culture (I hate Rokugan so much...).I prefer the Chinese five-element system to the other one, really. The five elements of Fire, Water, Wood, Metal (gold), and Earth (soil) are pretty cool, and have some interesting interactions you can't get in a four element or four-plus-one element system.Tangent aside, I understand how thoroughly these elements are ingrained into certain Chinese martial arts. Of course, they are not universally important to martial arts. Alternative concepts, like the Eight Trigrams, Yin and Yang, the Four Symbols (and Twenty-Eight Mansions), etc, are also pretty important to various martial arts and philosophies. However, this is really pretty irrelevant.The Shugenja, as seen in Rokugan, is a magician. By its concept, it is a class built around people who change the world through magic developed through study of the elements, mysticism, and philosophy. It is a great concept, but it is a very different one from a martial artist who uses mysticism in order to push his own physical capabilities beyond what is normally possible. What is more, it is very different from the idea of "ki" as being a form of pure, non-elemental energy that is so very common in pop-culture (and which I think is important to the the idea of a Ki Power Source).I can see empowering a fist to smash stone. However, I do see a problem manipulating elemental wind (well, outside of Avatar the Last Airbender). It may be odd to you, but there is a pretty clear distinction in my head. I mean, I can easily imagine a Ki class swinging a sword to create a classic "vacuum wave" air slash effect, or someone protecting an invisible ball of ki from a palm strike that strikes a foe like a bullet made from air, but pure "magic-like" effects of elemental forces, which depend on ritual or something completely unconnected from physical effort and displays of martial art skill, just don't connect as belonging to the Ki Power Source.Of course the Monk's abilities should be overtly supernatural if it is going to be a Ki class rather than a Martial class. I think I have said so myself. But it doesn't have to be elemental in order to be supernatural.Besides, you should keep in mind that I have tried to make a distinction between "Ki" and the Ki Power Source. I have no problem with Ki (the concept) being linked with magic, mysticism, the elements, and everything else. However, just because a class's abilities can be described as Ki does not mean that it belongs in the Ki Power Source. As I hope I mentioned above, I want Ki to be the "supernatural Martial", something built just as much round weapons, direct combat, and physical ability as the Martial power source, but with an added supernatural edge that allows for flashier moves and superhuman feats. Something like the Rokugan Shugenja is perfectly valid, but it lacks the focus on direct combat, weapon-use, and physical ability that I think is essential to a Ki Power Source.If it helps explain my point any more, keep in mind that I argued that the Rokugan Shugenja would work well in the same power source as a more fantastic Ninja class, which may very well be the Elemental Power Source. I said the Ninja would work well in such a power source primarily because I have played a number of videogames in which Ninja are partially wizard-like characters who use magical "jutsu" techniques that manipulate either the four aristotelian elements (Seiken Densetsu 3) or the five chinese elements (Final Fantasy Tactics Advance), and I love that concept. I don't think that concept belongs in the Ki Power Source, but I would love to see a power source dedicated to it.</blockquote>

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