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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9476536" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Don't need both.&nbsp; Darkness in the Shadow monk is for advantage.&nbsp; Topple in the Open Hand monk is for advantage.&nbsp; But you also only get a limited number of Weapon Masteries with feat or splashing so we need to look at those overlaps.&nbsp; ;-)I would also point out that all characters still have the Grapple and Shove options available.&nbsp; In the case of Monks they get benefits to Grapple and more opportunities to use Shove.&nbsp; It's just giving up damage and less potent in application.&nbsp; A practical application would be to Flurry, use both attacks to Shove for the Prone condition, move back taking AoO's at disadvantage (because getting overwhelmed in this example), and allowing other party members to move in on the 2 Prone opponents.&nbsp; Those are situationally viable options.More than one enemy is why Darkness works.Which requires caution at times.I disagree.Rogues get the second chance at Sneak Attack with or without Nick by way of the second weapon attack.&nbsp; The benefit of Nick is in keeping the bonus action, for which rogues have a lot of use.&nbsp; That's where it's similar for Monks.&nbsp; Monks have a lot of use for that bonus action and they get that extra attack with Nick that increases the number of chances to hit for things like Stunning Blow.&nbsp; It's not always about the damage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 9476536, member: 6750235"] Don't need both. Darkness in the Shadow monk is for advantage. Topple in the Open Hand monk is for advantage. But you also only get a limited number of Weapon Masteries with feat or splashing so we need to look at those overlaps. ;-) I would also point out that all characters still have the Grapple and Shove options available. In the case of Monks they get benefits to Grapple and more opportunities to use Shove. It's just giving up damage and less potent in application. A practical application would be to Flurry, use both attacks to Shove for the Prone condition, move back taking AoO's at disadvantage (because getting overwhelmed in this example), and allowing other party members to move in on the 2 Prone opponents. Those are situationally viable options. More than one enemy is why Darkness works. Which requires caution at times. I disagree. Rogues get the second chance at Sneak Attack with or without Nick by way of the second weapon attack. The benefit of Nick is in keeping the bonus action, for which rogues have a lot of use. That's where it's similar for Monks. Monks have a lot of use for that bonus action and they get that extra attack with Nick that increases the number of chances to hit for things like Stunning Blow. It's not always about the damage. [/QUOTE]

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