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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8052466" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Ok, I guess We are doing this? No magical gear. Just rough math of maxing AC. Barbarian: Half-Plate for 17/ 19 with shield (lowers damage). 22 if they max stats, 24 with shield (not counting reckless)Bard: 17 if they max dex or 19 if Valor (Half-Plate)Cleric: Between 19 or 21 depending on domain (Half or Full Plate)Druid: 19 (Half-Plate and shield)Fighter: Between 18 and 21 (Full Plate and Shield with defensive)Monk: 20 (25 when using patient), 22 and 27 if KenseiPaladin:  Between 18 and 21 (Full Plate and Shield with defensive)Ranger: Half-Plate for 17/ 20 with shield and defensiveRogue: 17 if they max dex. Does have a lot of tricksSorcerer: 15 if they max dex, 18 for dragons, bumping to 20 and 23 if they use shieldWarlock: 18 if they max dex with armor of shadows. 17/19 if they go hexblade with shieldWizard: 15 is they max dex, 18 for mage armor, 23 if they use shieldSo, I know there are a lot of problems with this list (I didn't account for ASI's, if they are this race they can do this, by the level this would happen everyone is in magic gear) But at 20/25 the monk is doing better than everyone on that list. 20 alone puts them equal or above every caster except a forge domain cleric. And a lot of those casters I have maxing their dexterity, which they would never do. Even just the 18 for a more reasonable 20 dex 16 Wis is better than a lot of options on this list. And that happens by level 8.Actually, I showed them on par with a Battlemaster with no feats, using their superiority dice on every attack. I mean a single point of average damage below, but a monk using flurry and a Battlemaster with Greatsword and dice were right next to each other by level 5. Oh, and if the Battlemaster didn't afford Plate by Level 5? Then they have the same AC or worse than the monk.I'm sorry, I want to get this straight. You want to tell me that the fighter who picked their Fighting style, which can never be changed, and is using a shield which takes time and effort, and reduces their damage output, is facing less of an opportunity cost than a generic monk who decided to spend a single ki this one round. Also, breaking down your numbers (using your +5 mod)Monk with no subclass, feat, or race using Patient Defense: 2d8+10 = 19 averageFighter Sentinel feat, possibly variant human for sentinel: 2d6+1d4+15 = 24.5Monk with no subclass, feat, or race on a standard no resource turn 2d8+1d6+15 = 27.5Monk with no subclass, feat, or race on a flurry of blows turn = 2d8+2d6+20 = 36So. The same monk has three choices. They can spend no resources and have an 18 AC. They deal more damage than that fighter. They can spend to deal even more damage than that fighter. Or they can spend to have the same AC as the fighter for 1 round of combat and do less damage that round. And that fighter? Has no option to change their play. I mean I guess they could doff their shield (1 round) and two-hand their spear. Then they could at least keep up with the monk's damage. And this monk has no build. This is just a faceless undefined monk. Who can spend resources to match your defense mister specialization, and without doing that, beats your damage potential. By a lot if they choose to spend the resources on it.Nope. You showed that a monk choosing to patient defense lacks offense that turn, but that only applies to the that specific turn. The monk can choose to just have their AC of 18 (if it is good enough for a heavy weapon fighter, why is it too low for monks?)I literally started with no ki. That is the first analysis I did, since you seemed to have missed it.Monkwithout spending any ki or resourceslevel 1 does 1d8+1d4+6 = 13level 5 does 2d8+1d6+12 = 24.5AC 16/17 And then the two fighters, also with no resources (and no feats)BM fighter Longsword+Shield and Dueling StyleWithout spending any resourcesLevel 1  1d8+5 = 9.5Level 5 2d8+12 = 21AC 18BM Fighter GreatswordWithout spending any resourcesLevel 1  2d6+3 (assuming style is +2 damage on average) = 12Level 5 4d6+8 = 24AC 16 So. No resources spent. The monk is ahead of all of them until 5th where the Greatsword Fighter catches up. I don't care about Treantmonk's analysis. He didn't compare these classes, he compared them to a EB+AB+Hex build. Which, by the way would be1d10+1d6+3 = 122d10+2d6+8 = 26Which loses to the Monk at level 1, and beats everything by level 5. And since we now want to add in PAM fighter2d10+1d4+9 = 22.5This was assuming they did that at level 4 instead of an ASI, and it puts them back behind the monk. So, maybe if it is a Variant Human who took PAM at level 1... but we've kind of gone beyond just "Battlemaster fighter" by this stage.So now to beat the monk (which supposedly sucks) we are giving the fighter the advantage on magical +1 gear and the monk nothing. Really? Not only is this heavily DM dependent, on multiple levels, but this is a lot of stretching. Especially since a longsword isn't a light melee weapon and can't be dual-wielded. But sure, we will give the Fighter Dual-Weilding, heck, lets do it as a variant human. So, Variant human with dueling style applied to an improvised shield weapon that is using a feat in a way you need permission from your DM to even attempt1d8+1d4+7 = 142d8+1d4+14 = 25.5Congrats. You beat the monk by a single point in both categories. The baseline assumption has been 16 AC. from 16 Dex, 16 Wis. I have no concept why you are lowering their AC. Especially since it doesn't even help.So, the barbarian will spend one turn dropping his big weapon to pull out his small weapon and put on a shield. Nice turn. The monk actually took their turn to do something. Also, again, unless you are using massive cheese, the sword and board fighter isn't doing more damage. The PAM fighter is, but they have comparable AC (Only 18 if a 5th level fighter is getting full plate [and this makes me wonder what the monk spent their money on])Literally why? By 5th level a monk has 40 ft of movement, daggers have 20 ft of range. That means I need to be within 45ft to run in, attack and run out. There is absolutely no reason to assume the monk will be at long range. Heck, using the daggers was just for ease of carrying, they could use Javelins and get 30, meaning they have a range of 55. And again, this is going under your own assumption that they don't want to be in melee. Standard array gives us a 15, 14. A wood elf Monk would have 16/16 by level 1. If you want to stick by a worse array, that's on you, but everyone has been assuming a +2/+1 race for this since the beginning. In fact, that was Treantmonk's standard.I can't find the bracer of daggers at the moment (maybe it was adventurer specific) but that creates endless magical daggers. Or, they just need two daggers of returning,But frankly, by this point we are assuming1) The monk has no ki2) The monk wants to stay at range3) They are fighting an enemy with damage resistance4) the other classes have magic weaponsIf this is what it takes to prove monks suck, I wonder how anyone can stand playing a spellcaster.Yes, I know. But the fighter doesn't get the benefit of their style, and they use a lower damage die, and they have a harder time getting in and out of range. So, GW fighters are all fools? And, your point was that they would take multiple AO's from moving. Which means that instead of stopping next to a single enemy, they stopped in the middle of a group of them. That is frankly stupid if your plan is to run away. And you know I've proven that without massive cheese, your S+B fighter is also doing significantly less damage until level 11Edit: And I see that your GW Fighter just becomes a sub-par Sword and Board fighter instead.Which is why I mentioned it was an option. I also said it was possible they attacked a weaker enemy and killed it, allowing them to flee for free.And, I'm guessing you are talking about switching weapons and shields before the fight even starts, because they can't do that mid-combat without wasting a turn.I brought up the shadow because, like you said, it starts to depend on what they can do. You've wanted to take a monk, with no subclass, a subpar racial group, take away over half of all their abilities at these levels, and make assumptions that put them in the worst possible position. And even with all that, they are still performing right at level with fighters until level 11. I'd like to see a wizard do the same if we took away all his spells and forced him into melee.</blockquote>

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